Prom 62 - 30.08.17: Chineke!

[pastoralguy]

You know, attacking the individual with whom you disagree does not bode well for a constructive discussion. Labelling your opponent as "privileged, white, middle class" is neither constructive nor relevant. I acknowledge many of the points made, but as I have already said, we are on the same side.

[Richard Barrett]

Labelling your opponent as "privileged, white, middle class" is neither constructive nor relevant.

It isn't an "attack" to use those terms. You are putting across a privileged white middle class view, whoever and whatever you actually are. It's relevant in so far as I don't think you'd ever hear anyone who wasn't those things making the arguments that you do, and constructive in so far as pointing that out might help you to see that the view you're putting across is a lot less objective than you seem to think it is.

[MrGongGong]

Labelling your opponent as "privileged, white, middle class" is neither constructive nor relevant. .

I think I'm going to ask some folks I know in this ensemble whether this is the case or not.
Fine by you?

This ensemble was created in response to issues of privilege but I guess that's not relevant.

How about trying a bit of this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

I'm sure you could manage it if you really tried

[french frank]

For goodness' sake - it gets people who otherwise wouldn't be playing in an orchestra, playing in an orchestra.

[MrGongGong]

For goodness' sake - it gets people who otherwise wouldn't be playing in an orchestra, playing in an orchestra.

What a terrible idea.

[gradus]

Posting intended already posted.

[doversoul1]

It looks as if founding of the orchestra wasn’t exactly based on her ( Chi-chi Nwanoku) own experience. Not that this is a critical point but assuming that the founder knows what it is like to be discriminated could weaken the argument.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jun/02/chi-chi-nwanoku-classical-music-living-colour-black-orchestra-chineke-foundation

I was going to make similar points, but it could be that for various reasons there is less interest in western classical music amongst some cultural groups. It does not automatically follow that there is discrimination because there are few "non white" faces in UK orchestras. However, I would suggest that proportionally there is under representation - but it is not necessarily because of discriimination within the music industry/profession.

Any comments on this point?

[Tony Halstead]

For goodness' sake - it gets people who otherwise wouldn't be playing in an orchestra, playing in an orchestra.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It looks as if founding of the orchestra wasn’t exactly based on her ( Chi-chi Nwanoku) own experience. Not that this is a critical point but assuming that the founder knows what it is like to be discriminated could weaken the argument.

How, dovers? Lots of people teaching in state schools in socially-deprived areas who know that prejudice goes on, and who went into the profession precisely to fight against it, even though this is not their own experience.

Any comments on this point?

Well, there's enough "interest" from the BME "cultural group" to make at least one pretty impressive Symphony Orchestra!

[Richard Barrett]

assuming that the founder knows what it is like to be discriminated could weaken the argument

I'm not sure what your point is - I am 100% sure that every black person in the UK knows what it is like to be discriminated against in some part of their lives or another.

[french frank]

Any comments on this point?

I agree that there is not always deliberate discrimination ('we don't have black players in our orchestra'), which is why I used the phrase 'unintended exclusion'. If people are held back because they feel excluded from an environment which they feel unsure about, and lack confidence, it has just the same effect as being deliberately excluded: they stay away. They feel encouraged to join in with 'people like me'.

They are not being trained to play in a black orchestra: they're being trained to play in an orchestra.

[I say nothing about the VPO … ]

[doversoul1]

ferneyhoughgeliebte

How, dovers? Lots of people teaching in state schools in socially-deprived areas who know that prejudice goes on, and who went into the profession precisely to fight against it, even though this is not their own experience

.

from the article:
Perhaps I was one of the lucky ones? I somehow slipped through the net. […]
We were the only black family at my primary and secondary schools, and I didn’t think at all about being the only black student at the Royal Academy of Music. My attitude is that if anyone has a problem with the colour of my skin it’s their problem not mine; I don’t think I necessarily even notice what my colleagues might term racism.

Well, there's enough "interest" from the BME "cultural group" to make at least one pretty impressive Symphony Orchestra!

Would you say that this is a sign/evidence that there is a lot of interest? Seriously (I don’t exactly mean you are not serious), I think this is a valid point to consider.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

ferneyhoughgeliebte
.

from the article:
Perhaps I was one of the lucky ones? I somehow slipped through the net. […]
We were the only black family at my primary and secondary schools, and I didn’t think at all about being the only black student at the Royal Academy of Music. My attitude is that if anyone has a problem with the colour of my skin it’s their problem not mine; I don’t think I necessarily even notice what my colleagues might term racism.

I don't see that this "weakens the argument" for her work in support of others who have encountered discrimination.

Would you say that this is a sign/evidence that there is a lot of interest? Seriously (I don’t exactly mean you are not serious), I think this is a valid point to consider.

I don't see that the existence of the orchestra demonstrates that there is "less interest" (as Dave put it) - unless the suggestion is that the orchestra managed to gather together all the members from the BME communities with an interest in the Western Classical repertoires? (And the children in the Youth Orchestra aren't really interested?) Dave posited the possibility that the scarcity of BME members of British Symphony Orchestras might be connected with "less interest" in the Music from "some" of those communities - but this cannot hold water if there is enough "interest" to create a Symphony Orchestra from young adults who have gone through Academy/College/Conservatoire training. And, I repeat, enough talent to create a very fine Symphony Orchestra - that none of these young adults have been able to find a position in any of the UK professional orchestras; that just cannot be put down to "less interest in Western Classical Music" amongst these communities.

[Dave2002]

fhg

I never had the opportunity to take part in a steel band, nor was I encouraged to do so. Similarly for a gamelan orchestra, nor a band of drummers.
Nor was I offered the chance to play the sitar, either as a soloist nor in a group.

I was offered chances to learn "standard" instruments and to play in orchestras, some of which I took. However, if we look at numbers, it is obvious that relatively few people in the UK have an interest or knowledge of classical music, just as I have relatively little interest or knowledge of the UK pop scene.

I think there are cultural aspects which might impact on the numbers of (young?) people participating in different forms of musical activities in different countries.

I don't think it's possible simply to ascribe the clearly relatively small number of obviously non white musicians in orchestras solely to various forms of racism nor discrimination nor bias.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But, Dave - 73 young adult Musicians from BME backgrounds turned up and performed rather well at the concert on Wednesday night. There is enough "interest" in Western Classical Music from people from those communities, and enough of them experiencing problems getting regular employment, to require the formation of a charity to support them and others from similar backgrounds facing similar problems. If there wasn't enough interest, and plentiful experience of the specific difficulties encountered, from this particular group, the charity wouldn't and couldn't exist.

You are quite right to say that "clearly relatively small number of obviously non white musicians in orchestras solely to various forms of racism nor discrimination nor bias" - but pinpointing exact causes of this under-representation isn't the chief purpose of the charity; creating opportunities to perform is: and that has meant by-passing the existing orchestras.