Prom 62 - 30.08.17: Chineke!

[french frank]

Removing divisions, rather than reinforcing them.

The weakness of that is that you simply repeat your single argument: 'no divisions' which is better understood as 'no exclusions', since your objection is to the setting up of bodies which 'exclude'. But you don't address the objections which point out how 'exclusion' is much wider than not being allowed to join this or that body. The problem is general social exclusions which result in unintended particular exclusions. Why are people who would be 'very welcome' to join not doing so, even though 'there's nothing to stop them'? Obviously, there is something stopping them.

Your suggestion of 'removing divisions' is simply returning to the situation which existed before groups like Chineke! were formed. That is the very situation which resulted in the imbalance in the first place. You aren't identifying the problem.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The weakness of that is that you simply repeat your single argument: 'no divisions' which is better understood as 'no exclusions', since your objection is to the setting up of bodies which 'exclude'. But you don't address the objections which point out how 'exclusion' is much wider than not being allowed to join this or that body.
The problem is general social exclusions which result in unintended particular exclusions. Why are people who would be 'very welcome' to join not doing so, even though 'there's nothing to stop them'? Obviously, there is something stopping them.

I concur with all of the above. But creating a new ghetto, that effectively accepts the problem of inequality, we must do much more to clean up our act. We mustn't drive people into ghettos in the first place, by not assuming basic differences, by not referring to people of a different colour or creed by terms like "the black community", or the Sikh community. We should not be driving Jews and people from, or descended from the Indian subcontinent, to certain parts of our cities, but neither should those people exclude themselves, as many so-called British ex-pats do in Spain. The Daily Mail (etc.) should be taken to task for publishing xenophobic hate articles.

We've a long way to go, but simply compounding the problem isn't going to be very helpful. It's like solving the Bosnian problem by ethnic cleansing.

[pastoralguy]

I seem to remember that the CBSO had a woman of colour who was a Bassoon player. Other than that, I'd be very hard pressed to think of another coloured person in a professional orchestra other than the esteemed Chi-Chi Nwanoku. (And I've seen MANY professional orchestras!)

Perhaps, instead of casting doubts on the Chineke! Orchestra's motives, contributors to this forum would be better employed asking why the music profession has so few coloured players.

[Dave2002]

I had to look BME up - and found this - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...t-d3q87mxj9zzx (which some might be able to access ...).

Positive discrimination is i think still an issue in some societies - such as the USA - where other things being equal there is still (in some states at least - if I'm still up to date) a policy of selecting "disadvantaged" members of the community for jobs. I don't know how successful that policy has been, or whether it is even fair, or fairly administered - which is not quite the same thing. My feeling is that in American society it has led to improvements over a very long period.

I'm less sure that similar policies need to be built into UK administration. In theory at least, negative discrimination is not permitted in many aspects of life in the UK.

[Dave2002]

I seem to remember that the CBSO had a woman of colour who was a Bassoon player. Other than that, I'd be very hard pressed to think of another coloured person in a professional orchestra other than the esteemed Chi-Chi Nwanoku. (And I've seen MANY professional orchestras!)

Perhaps, instead of casting doubts on the Chineke! Orchestra's motives, contributors to this forum would be better employed asking why the music profession has so few coloured players.

I was going to make similar points, but it could be that for various reasons there is less interest in western classical music amongst some cultural groups. It does not automatically follow that there is discrimination because there are few "non white" faces in UK orchestras. However, I would suggest that proportionally there is under representation - but it is not necessarily because of discriimination within the music industry/profession.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I concur with all of the above. But creating a new ghetto, that effectively accepts the problem of inequality, we must do much more to clean up our act. We mustn't drive people into ghettos in the first place, by not assuming basic differences, by not referring to people of a different colour or creed by terms like "the black community", or the Sikh community. We should not be driving Jews and people from, or descended from the Indian subcontinent, to certain parts of our cities, but neither should those people exclude themselves, as many so-called British ex-pats do in Spain. The Daily Mail (etc.) should be taken to task for publishing xenophobic hate articles.

We've a long way to go, but simply compounding the problem isn't going to be very helpful. It's like solving the Bosnian problem by ethnic cleansing.

Not really - nobody's going to get killed as a result of this orchestra being founded. Nor is the orchestra a "ghetto" - for one thing, it's an initiative from the people concerned, not something enforced upon them. Well, except for the fact that they were unable to get employment in the established professional orchestras. Rather than just getting depressed by this, (or simply "whinging about it" as some might have put it) they've actually done something positive about it. The orchestra that performed last night showed itself to be a first-rate ensemble (a bit under-powered in the Capriccio Espagnol, I thought - but that was the conductor's fault, not the players') - is it really conceivable that none of the sixty-odd Musicians could get a place in any of the symphony orchestras of the UK? And is their resolve to "solve" their own problem really the proper "target" for discombobulation - shouldn't the lack of BME players in those other, established ensembles be a more appropriate focus for discussion?

[MrGongGong]

I seem to remember that the CBSO had a woman of colour who was a Bassoon player. Other than that, I'd be very hard pressed to think of another coloured person in a professional orchestra other than the esteemed Chi-Chi Nwanoku. (And I've seen MANY professional orchestras!)

Perhaps, instead of casting doubts on the Chineke! Orchestra's motives, contributors to this forum would be better employed asking why the music profession has so few coloured players.

All the musicians I've ever seen are "coloured" just that most seem to be a shade of pink

Now I would pay good money to see some of the folks here try to argue their points against Margaret Crookhorn and Chi Chi
I'm sure both of these women need to be educated a bit by retired white men about how their lived experinece is somehow wrong...

[MrGongGong]

I concur with all of the above. But creating a new ghetto, that effectively accepts the problem of inequality, we must do much more to clean up our act. We mustn't drive people into ghettos in the first place, by not assuming basic differences, by not referring to people of a different colour or creed by terms like "the black community", or the Sikh community. We should not be driving Jews and people from, or descended from the Indian subcontinent, to certain parts of our cities, but neither should those people exclude themselves, as many so-called British ex-pats do in Spain. The Daily Mail (etc.) should be taken to task for publishing xenophobic hate articles.

We've a long way to go, but simply compounding the problem isn't going to be very helpful. It's like solving the Bosnian problem by ethnic cleansing.

From one middle class white man to another
I would suggest that it's a good point to stop digging and listen to people who KNOW about this rather than sitting on your own little privilidged hill telling everyone why they are wrong.

Why not listen to why this orchestra was founded in the first place from the people who did it?

[gradus]

....However,without the Opening Post (ed: sorry I meant #2),....the debate and contributions GG, ff, fhg, RB would probably not have come forth voluntarily....and I have been fascinated by these responses which have enriched my view on this subject, and I will use them as a template when I approach similar situations....We do sometimes need people with opinions so that we can forge our own opinions ....(or I do anyway)

Thanks for putting it so concisely. I agree.

[teamsaint]

I find myself thinking about these issues quite often. As a white male composer myself, I realise that any movement towards a fairer distribution of opportunity in contemporary composition is going to impact on the privilege enjoyed by people like me, since that fairer distribution is certainly going to involve spreading limited resources more widely than they are presently spread. My response to this is to recognise that the wider and longer term benefits to everyone are greatly more important than any loss of opportunity or advantage (or income) experienced by one individual or another. In some of the responses here I see, if not outright racism, a mean-spirited refusal to countenance making "their" culture more widely appreciated and participated in. If anything it's this attitude that will kill the music.

I'm not sure this is necessarily the case. I'm confident that doing the "right" thing will lead to increased resources, bigger audiences, a return on your/our social investment ( or whatever you want to call it). Wider opportunity doesn't necessarily mean reduction of availability of resources.

The idea that resources are limited has far too strong a hold on our thinking in general, and is often used by those with access those very resources to shore up their position.

[french frank]

The 'trick' is to think of the entire orchestral world of classical music as a single entity, and this little corner is no more than a small attempt at evening up an imbalance - picking a black oboist when the orchestra could have selected an equally good white one, for example. Surely, we don't need to do anything other than look at the engagement of these young players (kids in the case of the Junior Orchestra) and be glad that they are deriving so much personal satisfaction, enjoyment and sense of achievement from their endeavours? How could anyone want to deprive them of that?

http://www.chineke.org/our-mission

[Maclintick]

Speaking as a sixty-something, white, middle-class male, I'm with Mr G-G, FF & RB on this one. Others have made this point before, so apologies for reiterating, but surely the key aspect of an initiative such as Chineke! lies less in the inclusivity or exclusivity criteria, or the level of the orchestra's performance, over which we can fruitlessly bicker on one side or the other, than in the crucial aspect of visibility, which would be non-existent in terms of media representation & attention were it not for the efforts of Chi-Chi & enablers within the classical music sector. It doesn't require much of a leap of empathetic imagination to put ourselves in the shoes of a young, black potential music student who reacts to seeing Chineke! on the telly, or bigged-up in social media, & thereby receives a gift of possibility -- "Aha ! I could do that, then"

[Richard Barrett]

I'm confident that doing the "right" thing will lead to increased resources, bigger audiences, a return on your/our social investment

I certainly hope so. But the present government has no plans to increase across-the-board financial support in connection with increasing participation and accessibility so at present we would be talking either about dividing an existing pot between more people, or the same number with some people dropping out. What I'm saying is that this is less important than what's achieved by initiatives like the one under discussion.

The idea that Chineke! is creating a ghetto (let alone the comparison with Bosnia) is nonsensical. Of course it "accepts the problem of inequality". If there were no such problem there would be no need for such an initiative! EA, you make these statements blithely (as MrGG says, sitting in your privileged position telling everyone else they're wrong) with no supporting arguments, you advance no concrete suggestions of your own, and you show no willingness to imagine yourself in the place of those suffering under systemic prejudice in society, or to accept that they might just have a more valid point of view than yours.

[pastoralguy]

Speaking as a white, lower middle class man in his 50's, imho 'Classical Music' is becoming more ghettoised since, due to cutbacks in education, music education appears to be the preserve of those who can afford it. Typically, one needs a first and second study for music college and I'm sure there must be many gifted young musicians who simply can't afford to pay for two lots of lessons, Instruments, exams etc.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

You know, attacking the individual with whom you disagree does not bode well for a constructive discussion. Labelling your opponent as "privileged, white, middle class" is neither constructive nor relevant. I acknowledge many of the points made, but as I have already said, we are on the same side.