Prom 62 - 30.08.17: Chineke!

[Cockney Sparrow]

http://www.chineke.org/

"As Europe’s first majority-BME orchestra, the Chineke! Orchestra performs a mixture of standard orchestral repertoire "
Thought I'd heard Chi Chi-N say its not exclusively BME.

Surely what is needed is opportunity at age, say 7 years and upward for all children, disadvantaged and not, of all ethnicity, to learn and have an equal chance to reach excellence playing an instrument? But that's not going to happen in England. For nearly all children it will not happen. Except those with with supportive and determined parents or similarly exceptional teachers (and exceptional schools enabling them) the pool of excellent players from whom orchestral and solo musicians rise will consist of a lesser proportion of ethnic minority (and, I suggest otherwise disadvantaged persons) than the majority white population.
I'm not sure the wrong being done to ethnic minority children in their opportunity to become players is any different to the wrong done to disadvantaged white children ( El sistema anyone?).

Is it inferred there are lots of ethnic minority players of the same standard as others beating on the doors of UK orchestras and being of equal standard, discriminated against in not getting the job? Do any of the orchestras undertake completely unseen auditions? (BBC orchestras in particular) .
I'm sure this topic could run and run such is the complexity,, not to mention the high emotions/politics involved.

(Quite apart from forum members (is it plural?) taking up cudgels with their long held antipathies to other members - the aggression in the language used is tedious in the extreme).

[jonfan]

Spot on
Unless "people like me" are visible then many folks won't even consider participating.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sparrow's mentioning El sistema draws attention to the point that we have had an orchestra of this sort performing at the Proms since 2007 - are any members of the (adult) Simon Bolivar Orchestra not from Venezuela?

CS is also absolutely correct in pointing out that Instrumental tuition provision - and funding for Arts education generally - is shi ... inadequate. That is where I think outrage should be directed - not at an ensemble that is attempting to address one specific area of this general neglect. The implication that this ensemble shouldn't exist because there isn't a similar one for socially-deprived white kids is a bit feeble - like saying the East-West Divan Orchestra shouldn't exist because there are other communities around the world in conflict, not just the Middle East.

The founders of this orchestra are doing something to try to rectify that section of Social Disadvantage that they feel able to do something about. Unless its critics are making similar efforts on behalf of other disadvantaged communities, they don't really have any serious grounds for complaint.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"As Europe’s first majority-BME orchestra, the Chineke! Orchestra performs a mixture of standard orchestral repertoire "
Thought I'd heard Chi Chi-N say its not exclusively BME.

I think the context was along the lines of "it's not just BME Musicians (who benefit from the existence of the orchestra), it's all Classical Music"? But a glimpse at the photos suggests that it might not be an exclusive BME ensemble - nor, for that matter, exclusively from "socially-deprived" backgrounds (but there I'm being presumptuous!): that seems to be the work of the Junior Orchestra.

Anyroadup - any comments on the Music-making? Seemed very good to me and impressive over a wide(-ish) range of styles. The Boulogne and Walker pieces were very pleasant pieces, too - has any other ensemble featured their work at the Proms (or, for that matter, anywhere)?

[Richard Barrett]

I'm quite appalled at some of the opinions on show in this thread. As MrGG says, would their holders be prepared to contact the founders of this ensemble to explain to them exactly how this orchestra is doing "nothing to address the issues involved"? It's called "positive discrimination" because it involves and encourages people (both musicians and audiences) who are discriminated against in very many areas of British society (and surely nobody is going to argue that this isn't the case!) to participate in a kind of music-making and -appreciation which most contributors to this forum would agree is a positive and enlightening presence in their lives. There is no symmetry between an enterprise like this and the "counterexample" mentioned by a few people of an all-white orchestra - all European orchestras (and audiences) until relatively recently consisted only of white people. A little earlier they all consisted entirely of men.

I find myself thinking about these issues quite often. As a white male composer myself, I realise that any movement towards a fairer distribution of opportunity in contemporary composition is going to impact on the privilege enjoyed by people like me, since that fairer distribution is certainly going to involve spreading limited resources more widely than they are presently spread. My response to this is to recognise that the wider and longer term benefits to everyone are greatly more important than any loss of opportunity or advantage (or income) experienced by one individual or another. In some of the responses here I see, if not outright racism, a mean-spirited refusal to countenance making "their" culture more widely appreciated and participated in. If anything it's this attitude that will kill the music.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I'm travelling and can't post from my mobile. The discussion will be between others mostly anyway, but I can't post, mostly between breakfast and evening meal times.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm quite appalled at some of the opinions on show in this thread. As MrGG says, would their holders be prepared to contact the founders of this ensemble to explain to them exactly how this orchestra is doing "nothing to address the issues involved"? It's called "positive discrimination" because it involves and encourages people (both musicians and audiences) who are discriminated against in very many areas of British society (and surely nobody is going to argue that this isn't the case!) to participate in a kind of music-making and -appreciation which most contributors to this forum would agree is a positive and enlightening presence in their lives. There is no symmetry between an enterprise like this and the "counterexample" mentioned by a few people of an all-white orchestra - all European orchestras (and audiences) until relatively recently consisted only of white people. A little earlier they all consisted entirely of men.

You can be as appalled as you like. I'm appalled by any form of racism. The Vienna Phil was wrong to have a sexist male only orchestra, but they have seen the light, even though they move a bit too slowly. But having women only, LGBT only, non-white preferred orchestras is equally wrong and gives the reactionaries in our society all the ammunition they want to keep a divided society.

Just for the record, I have two mixed race grandchildren.

[Richard Barrett]

having women only, LGBT only, non-white preferred orchestras is equally wrong

Why? It would be wrong if women or gay or black people were in a dominant and privileged position in society, but they aren’t. Note that this argument is always and only made by people who are members of a dominant and privileged sector.

and gives the reactionaries in our society all the ammunition they want to keep a divided society.

How? What you seem to be saying is that the setting up of initiatives like this actually hinders any movement towards greater inclusiveness, merely by giving ammunition to reactionaries! This is a pretty ridiculous standpoint. Firstly: reactionaries don’t need ammunition, everything they see around them confirms their prejudices. Secondly: there is no way in the world that not giving people opportunities they haven’t previously had to perform or compose or just to see and hear inclusivity in action is going to achieve anything at all.

[french frank]

The answer lies in your example of the VPO, Alpie; without any strongly positive moves, the wheels of anti-discrimination move exceeding slow. Would you like to put a date on the time when there will be broadly the same number of women as men in the VPO? When there will be an appreciable number of black people in the BBCSO/OAE &c (oh, look! there's Chi-chi Nwanoku - her father is black …).

Of course, one would see more of a balanced discussion if we could hear the views of the underrepresented minorities - but here, as is not unusual, we hear the voices of those who don't suffer from racism. Racial discrimination NOW is a problem and it's not enough to say that it will die out naturally if we wait long enough'. You work for racial equality or you don't.

You can be as appalled as you like. I'm appalled by any form of racism. The Vienna Phil was wrong to have a sexist male only orchestra, but they have seen the light, even though they move a bit too slowly. But having women only, LGBT only, non-white preferred orchestras is equally wrong and gives the reactionaries in our society all the ammunition they want to keep a divided society.

[Richard Barrett]

here, as is not unusual, we hear the voices of those who don't suffer from racism

& often also invoking "one of my best friends" or "two of my grandchildren" or whatever as if such things somehow inoculate them against having to look at themselves and their opinions in a wider perspective.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

& often also invoking "one of my best friends" or "two of my grandchildren" or whatever as if such things somehow inoculate them against having to look at themselves and their opinions in a wider perspective.

Of course it doesn't, but it can help to give a perspective of the real world.

Fundamentally, we are on the same side, but have widely different views on the way forward.

[Richard Barrett]

Fundamentally, we are on the same side, but have widely different views on the way forward.

What is your "view of the way forward"?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

What is your "view of the way forward"?

Removing divisions, rather than reinforcing them.

[Richard Barrett]

Removing divisions, rather than reinforcing them.

That's so vague I'm sure almost everyone would agree with it. The orchestra under discussion is indeed a good example of removing divisions, by inviting and encouraging people who've been one way and another excluded from this musical tradition to participate in it, to show that this is possible, to both listeners and potential performers, and thus breaking down the perception that the music belongs only to white middle-class people. Can you think of a better initiative to address divisions in society?

[eighthobstruction]

....However,without the Opening Post (ed: sorry I meant #2),....the debate and contributions GG, ff, fhg, RB would probably not have come forth voluntarily....and I have been fascinated by these responses which have enriched my view on this subject, and I will use them as a template when I approach similar situations....We do sometimes need people with opinions so that we can forge our own opinions ....(or I do anyway)