Prom 51 - 22.08.17: Sibelius, Saint-Saens and Elgar–Payne

[vinteuil]

We're talking at cross purposes, vinteuil, you at the national, political level, and I'm rambling about the people's notions of nation.

[ ... tho' I think that 'the people's notions of nation' can turn out to be pretty unsavoury, based on unsubstantiated myths and beliefs, and not helped by things like the jingoistic Elgar stuff you mentioned... ]








.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

[ ... tho' I think that 'the people's notions of nation' can turn out to be pretty unsavoury, based on unsubstantiated myths and beliefs, and not helped by things like the jingoistic Elgar stuff you mentioned... ]

Who are/what is "the people" in any case? Are those of us who aren't at all impressed by The Crown of India "unpeople"?

[edashtav]

My use of "the" in front of people's was "unfortunate"!
Please excise it and excuse me!

[Nick Armstrong]

Enjoyed the Elgar a lot, and the Sibelius; the concerto less so. Was good to be sitting a few seats away from IGI with whose review I largely agree

https://bachtrack.com/review-prom-51-elgar-payne-oramo-perianes-bbcso-august-2017

- I found the Elgar performance had more light and shade than the 'hearty' headline, as the review points out.

The concerto was indeed alas a bit of a damp squib from our seats. I have a problem with the piano sound this year, both in the hall and on radio (Tiberghian's Bechstein the other night a shining exception to that). The piano sound kept me at a distance, and the orchestra certainly didn't give the piece the help it needs to work. Disappointing as I was with a French relative (with whom I'm working on Saint-Saens's clarinet sonata) and I felt that the concert let down the French side more than a little.

I still think the first movement is the strongest although the others have interesting things too.

That's interesting - it's always the last movement that sounds to me most "like" Elgar, melodically, harmonically, structurally, and hence seems the strongest... but perhaps it's because it sounds to me the most like earlier symphonic Elgar, and I don't have as much of a handle on the 'future' Elgar which the sketches reveal (esp the first movement) and which Payne and you no doubt grasp better than I do. Certainly lovely things everywhere, but the last movement just seems to me to hang together the best.

[Pulcinella]

I have a problem with the very beginning of Elgar/Payne 3.
I'm sure that there is a reason (rhythmic or otherwise; happy to be enlightened) why it starts on the downbeat, but I'd 'prefer' an upbeat, of a rising semitone, as we get later: so instead of Dum, de dum, de dum, de dum we get De dum, de dum, etc.

[Stanfordian]

I have a problem with the very beginning of Elgar/Payne 3.
I'm sure that there is a reason (rhythmic or otherwise; happy to be enlightened) why it starts on the downbeat, but I'd 'prefer' an upbeat, of a rising semitone, as we get later: so instead of Dum, de dum, de dum, de dum we get De dum, de dum, etc.

Hiya Pulcinella,

With the material available to him I think Anthony Payne has done a first class job with Elgar's Sym No. 3.

[Pulcinella]

Hiya Pulcinella,

With the material available to him I think Anthony Payne has done a first class job with Elgar's Sym No. 3.

Oh, I'm not denying that!
Sorry if it appeared as a criticism; it's just that it doesn't quite 'work' for me.
Whenever I hear it, I can't help thinking that the first note has been clipped!

[jayne lee wilson]

Forced to give up each half this concert, halfway through, by fatigue and headache (yet again- and needing to restrict screen-time for similar reasons) I at least must acknowledge the wonderfully idiomatic Sibelian sonority Oramo drew from the BBCSO in the Scènes Historiques...... cool, airy articulate strings; clear pastel winds; and those brasses, so clean and bright, like sunlight dazzling off a glacier, or primally brazen, as the cold metallic gleam of Longclaw.
A lovely, natural flow through the phrase, light and lift to the rhythm. In this true Sibelian's blood. CONCERT SOUND relayed it very beautifully.

Anyone who wonders what I'm thinking of if I express a dislike of say, Barenboim's dark, rich Berlin textures back at the season's start in the Violin Concerto, or any rhetorically-voiced or luxuriously-upholstered Sibelius (Bernstein, Berlin Rattle etc); and why I liked Søndergård's BBCNOW 7th more than most, this is how I feel it should sound. The Scènes in this Prom had an ungainsayable truthfulness-to-the-vision and purity about it. A deep sense of those ancient folkloric evocations. Early Sibelius (which I'm very fond, of especially the poems) sounds so much better to me when the obvious Romantic precedents are only a background.

This Elgar/Payne 3rd seemed to be going very well indeed when I left it during the scherzo; I felt as Cal did, many shades and subtleties of expression within its dazzling flow of invention.
A shame to leave it as I'd played the Daniel/BSO(**) recording in preparation and - despite being a very reluctant Elgarian now (partly for some of those "nationalistic" musical resonances discussed above) found myself more convinced by the piece than ever, and more aware of its fluidity of form (at least in the first 3 movements; less convinced by the finale qua finale, despite its dramatic, craggy motifs and hauntingly gloomy coda) and subtle, cyclical transformations.

(**) ..whose recorded sound is exceptional - I note from the Naxos inlay that this is one of Tony Faulkners' 176.4khz recordings; this does seem to reduce very well to CD, as can also be heard from his various LSO Live albums done the same way...

[Nick Armstrong]

the wonderfully idiomatic Sibelian sonority Oramo drew from the BBCSO in the Scènes Historiques...... cool, airy articulate strings; clear pastel winds; and those brasses, so clean and bright, like sunlight dazzling off a glacier, or primally brazen, as the cold metallic gleam of Longclaw.
A lovely, natural flow through the phrase, light and lift to the rhythm. In this true Sibelian's blood.

Sorry you were suffering; but you are bang on about the Sibelius sound. I loved the impact of the brass especially - crisp, shining and precise, but not gaudy or 'brassy'...

[BBMmk2]

Sorry you were suffering; but you are bang on about the Sibelius sound. I loved the impact of the brass especially - crisp, shining and precise, but not gaudy or 'brassy'...

I hae the I think, would it Gibson on Chandos, Scen historiques.

Indeed, Cali, the sound of the brass was very good.

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

Enjoyed the Elgar a lot, and the Sibelius; the concerto less so. Was good to be sitting a few seats away from IGI with whose review I largely agree

It was good to see you, Caliban! Yes, Tiberghien's Bechstein last week was gorgeous, but then that whole concert was on another level. I chatted with David Pickard as I headed to the RAH on Tuesday and we both admire François-Xavier Roth's programming so much.