Prom 51 - 22.08.17: Sibelius, Saint-Saens and Elgar–Payne

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Elgar and Nation Building:
Banner of St George
Caractacus
Cockaigne
Crown of India
Pomp and Circumstance Marches including Land of Hope and Glory
Falstaff
Empire March
Coronation Ode

Oh dear - I had thought that you meant that Elgar and Sibelius were similar in their (very different) ways of building Musical respect for their respective nations - but I don't think that "Nation Building" is the right expression for the "patriotic" works you cite, ed: the conditions of their respective nations was so different - Finland emerging as a Nation from centuries of dominance by Sweden and Russia; England possessing vast territorial colonies (so that it hardly needed "building"). If this "patriotic" aspect is your criteria, why not include Saint-Saens (with his A la France, Hymn a Jean d'Arc, My Land, Vive la France, La Francais, Victoire!, etc) as a "Nation Builder", too?

[edashtav]

Oh dear - I had thought that you meant that Elgar and Sibelius were similar in their (very different) ways of building Musical respect for their respective nations - but I don't think that "Nation Building" is the right expression for the "patriotic" works you cite, ed: the conditions of their respective nations was so different - Finland emerging as a Nation from centuries of dominance by Sweden and Russia; England possessing vast territorial colonies (so that it hardly needed "building"). If this "patriotic" aspect is your criteria, why not include Saint-Saens (with his A la France, Hymn a Jean d'Arc, My Land, Vive la France, La Francais, Victoire!, etc) as a "Nation Builder", too?

I see your point, ferney, but I'm not going to throw away my nation building term without a fight as there are different phases to nation building, it is a continuing process not an initial one-off, I would term that nation forming. Nation building is the process of building a spirit of "who we are" and I feel that Elgar both drew on past history and events in his own time to strengthen what being English and British meant to Britons in late Victorian / Edwardian times.

As for Saint-Saens, he was more than just a patriot, he loved Britain , too, and wrote a Coronation March for us!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I see your point, ferney, but I'm not going to throw away my nation building term without a fight as there are different phases to nation building, it is a continuing process not an initial one-off, I would term that nation forming. Nation building is the process of building a spirit of "who we are" and I feel that Elgar both drew on past history and events in his own time to strengthen what being English and British meant to Britons in late Victorian / Edwardian times.

But then Sibelius (whom you coupled with Elgar as "similar") is a "nation former" by your definition rather than a "builder" - but, then, I'm not convinced by your definition(s).

As for Saint-Saens, he was more than just a patriot, he loved Britain , too, and wrote a Coronation March for us!

But, by that criterion, Elgar is disqualified as a "nation builder" because he was "more than just a patriot" who wrote Polonia, Le Drapeau Belge, and even Alassio.

[vinteuil]

Elgar and Nation Building:
Banner of St George
Caractacus
Cockaigne
Crown of India
Pomp and Circumstance Marches including Land of Hope and Glory
Falstaff
Empire March
Coronation Ode

... not a Britain I identify with, nor would wish to .






.

[edashtav]

But then Sibelius (whom you coupled with Elgar as "similar") is a "nation former" by your definition rather than a "builder" - but, then, I'm not convinced by your definition(s).


But, by that criterion, Elgar is disqualified as a "nation builder" because he was "more than just a patriot" who wrote Polonia, Le Drapeau Belge, and even Alassio.

Ooh , you are in a disputatious even "picky"mood, ferney! But... because I'm distracted by caring commitments, I plead guilty to giving you ample opportunities through truncating arguments and general carelessness.

Works can exist in the intersection of "nation building" and "patriotic", the two qualities are not mutually exclusive.

You are pushing me to create exclusive sets whereas I see my definitions intersecting. Another instance: nation formation intersects with nation building, some might say the former was a subset of the latter.

I do admire and accept your addition of Saint-Saens to what has become "THE GANG OF THREE" nation builders!

I should have added The Spirit of England to my examples of Elgar, the nation builder.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... not a Britain I identify with, nor would wish to .

Nor I - but it is an aspect of identity that Elgar (whose "people" were in "trade", and RCs to boot) wished to be a part of. But, with respect to ed, I think that he has expressed a rather naive idea of "nation building" - ideas about which, it might be said, are, in any case, far removed from the concerns of the Symphony performed (rather well, I thought) in this Prom.

[edashtav]

... not a Britain I identify with, nor would wish to .






.

Fair comment vinteuil: Elgar was building a Jingoistic nation for his times: it is difficult to listen to Crown of India and feel better about Britain! Nation building includes parking some of yesterday's glories in the ''reserve collection" , to be accessed by scholars, on application. I don't want to widen the discussion to include statues!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Best wishes with your mother, ed - I hope she gets better again very soon.

("Picky" and "disputatious" are my middle names - my parents were very poor spellers.)

[vinteuil]

Elgar was building a Jingoistic nation for his times: it is difficult to listen to Crown of India and feel better about Britain!

... but what he was 'building' was a vision that suited his aspirations and those of parts of the population. That's not what I wd call building or forming a 'nation'...


.

[edashtav]

Nor I - but it is an aspect of identity that Elgar (whose "people" were in "trade", and RCs to boot) wished to be a part of. But, with respect to ed, I think that he has expressed a rather naive idea of "nation building" - ideas about which, it might be said, are, in any case, far removed from the concerns of the Symphony performed (rather well, I thought) in this Prom.

Elgar was not a highly educated man, ferney, and I accept that his ideas were naive, even shallow, in some respects. He was an emotional man and , perhaps, well- endowed in terms of emotional literacy. HIs portrayal of Falstaff is masterly and not at all naive.

Yes, let's get back to the Concert: I loved the playing of the BBC SO and Oramo's interpretations of all three works. ( I've avoided commenting on the pianist as my opinions are conflicted and I await guidance from our man at the front, or in the stalls, Cali, whose knowledge of French music and its interpretation, carries weight and authority on this blog site.)

It was the Third symphony that brought Elgar: national builder into focus in my mind. I heard in some of its brassy moments, echoes of chivalry and knights of olde. There is something reflective about the piece, of Elgar looking across his work to a past of.... well, nation building!

[edashtav]

... but what he was 'building' was a vision that suited his aspirations and those of parts of the population. That's not what I wd call building or forming a 'nation'...


.

Few people, or governments, create a nation by their own efforts, but many contribute something. Would you deny, vinteuil, that 'Land of Hope and Glory' did contribute to some folks' vision of Britain?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It was the Third symphony that brought Elgar: national builder into focus in my mind. I heard in some of its brassy moments, echoes of chivalry and knights of olde. There is something reflective about the piece, of Elgar looking across his work to a past of.... well, nation building!

Oh, dear! I don't hear any of this, I'm very, very glad to say.

[Bryn]

Oh, dear! I don't hear any of this, I'm very, very glad to say.

Yes, I fear this seems more something ed is bringing to Elgar than Elgar is bringing to ed.

[vinteuil]

. Would you deny, vinteuil, that 'Land of Hope and Glory' did contribute to some folks' vision of Britain?

... to 'some folks', no doubt. More's the pity.

But this is not 'nation building'.


I am told this is good - and the use of the word 'forging' in the title is significant...

http://amzn.eu/iIA4ayZ

.

[edashtav]

... to 'some folks', no doubt. More's the pity.

But this is not 'nation building'.


I am told this is good - and the use of the word 'forging' in the title is significant...

http://amzn.eu/iIA4ayZ

.

We're talking at cross purposes, vinteuil, you at the national, political level, and I'm rambling about the people's notions of nation.