Prom 51 - 22.08.17: Sibelius, Saint-Saens and Elgar–Payne

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  • ferneyhoughgeliebte
    Gone fishin'
    • Sep 2011
    • 30163

    #16
    Originally posted by edashtav View Post
    Elgar and Nation Building:
    Banner of St George
    Caractacus
    Cockaigne
    Crown of India
    Pomp and Circumstance Marches including Land of Hope and Glory
    Falstaff
    Empire March
    Coronation Ode
    Oh dear - I had thought that you meant that Elgar and Sibelius were similar in their (very different) ways of building Musical respect for their respective nations - but I don't think that "Nation Building" is the right expression for the "patriotic" works you cite, ed: the conditions of their respective nations was so different - Finland emerging as a Nation from centuries of dominance by Sweden and Russia; England possessing vast territorial colonies (so that it hardly needed "building"). If this "patriotic" aspect is your criteria, why not include Saint-Saens (with his A la France, Hymn a Jean d'Arc, My Land, Vive la France, La Francais, Victoire!, etc) as a "Nation Builder", too?
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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    • edashtav
      Full Member
      • Jul 2012
      • 3667

      #17
      Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
      Oh dear - I had thought that you meant that Elgar and Sibelius were similar in their (very different) ways of building Musical respect for their respective nations - but I don't think that "Nation Building" is the right expression for the "patriotic" works you cite, ed: the conditions of their respective nations was so different - Finland emerging as a Nation from centuries of dominance by Sweden and Russia; England possessing vast territorial colonies (so that it hardly needed "building"). If this "patriotic" aspect is your criteria, why not include Saint-Saens (with his A la France, Hymn a Jean d'Arc, My Land, Vive la France, La Francais, Victoire!, etc) as a "Nation Builder", too?
      I see your point, ferney, but I'm not going to throw away my nation building term without a fight as there are different phases to nation building, it is a continuing process not an initial one-off, I would term that nation forming. Nation building is the process of building a spirit of "who we are" and I feel that Elgar both drew on past history and events in his own time to strengthen what being English and British meant to Britons in late Victorian / Edwardian times.

      As for Saint-Saens, he was more than just a patriot, he loved Britain , too, and wrote a Coronation March for us!

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      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
        Gone fishin'
        • Sep 2011
        • 30163

        #18
        Originally posted by edashtav View Post
        I see your point, ferney, but I'm not going to throw away my nation building term without a fight as there are different phases to nation building, it is a continuing process not an initial one-off, I would term that nation forming. Nation building is the process of building a spirit of "who we are" and I feel that Elgar both drew on past history and events in his own time to strengthen what being English and British meant to Britons in late Victorian / Edwardian times.
        But then Sibelius (whom you coupled with Elgar as "similar") is a "nation former" by your definition rather than a "builder" - but, then, I'm not convinced by your definition(s).

        As for Saint-Saens, he was more than just a patriot, he loved Britain , too, and wrote a Coronation March for us!
        But, by that criterion, Elgar is disqualified as a "nation builder" because he was "more than just a patriot" who wrote Polonia, Le Drapeau Belge, and even Alassio.
        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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        • vinteuil
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 12778

          #19
          Originally posted by edashtav View Post
          Elgar and Nation Building:
          Banner of St George
          Caractacus
          Cockaigne
          Crown of India
          Pomp and Circumstance Marches including Land of Hope and Glory
          Falstaff
          Empire March
          Coronation Ode
          ... not a Britain I identify with, nor would wish to .






          .

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          • edashtav
            Full Member
            • Jul 2012
            • 3667

            #20
            Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
            But then Sibelius (whom you coupled with Elgar as "similar") is a "nation former" by your definition rather than a "builder" - but, then, I'm not convinced by your definition(s).


            But, by that criterion, Elgar is disqualified as a "nation builder" because he was "more than just a patriot" who wrote Polonia, Le Drapeau Belge, and even Alassio.
            Ooh , you are in a disputatious even "picky"mood, ferney! But... because I'm distracted by caring commitments, I plead guilty to giving you ample opportunities through truncating arguments and general carelessness.

            Works can exist in the intersection of "nation building" and "patriotic", the two qualities are not mutually exclusive.

            You are pushing me to create exclusive sets whereas I see my definitions intersecting. Another instance: nation formation intersects with nation building, some might say the former was a subset of the latter.

            I do admire and accept your addition of Saint-Saens to what has become "THE GANG OF THREE" nation builders!

            I should have added The Spirit of England to my examples of Elgar, the nation builder.

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            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
              Gone fishin'
              • Sep 2011
              • 30163

              #21
              Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
              ... not a Britain I identify with, nor would wish to .

              Nor I - but it is an aspect of identity that Elgar (whose "people" were in "trade", and RCs to boot) wished to be a part of. But, with respect to ed, I think that he has expressed a rather naive idea of "nation building" - ideas about which, it might be said, are, in any case, far removed from the concerns of the Symphony performed (rather well, I thought) in this Prom.
              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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              • edashtav
                Full Member
                • Jul 2012
                • 3667

                #22
                Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                ... not a Britain I identify with, nor would wish to .






                .
                Fair comment vinteuil: Elgar was building a Jingoistic nation for his times: it is difficult to listen to Crown of India and feel better about Britain! Nation building includes parking some of yesterday's glories in the ''reserve collection" , to be accessed by scholars, on application. I don't want to widen the discussion to include statues!

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                • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                  Gone fishin'
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 30163

                  #23
                  Best wishes with your mother, ed - I hope she gets better again very soon.

                  ("Picky" and "disputatious" are my middle names - my parents were very poor spellers.)
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                  • vinteuil
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 12778

                    #24
                    Originally posted by edashtav View Post
                    Elgar was building a Jingoistic nation for his times: it is difficult to listen to Crown of India and feel better about Britain!
                    ... but what he was 'building' was a vision that suited his aspirations and those of parts of the population. That's not what I wd call building or forming a 'nation'...


                    .

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                    • edashtav
                      Full Member
                      • Jul 2012
                      • 3667

                      #25
                      Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                      Nor I - but it is an aspect of identity that Elgar (whose "people" were in "trade", and RCs to boot) wished to be a part of. But, with respect to ed, I think that he has expressed a rather naive idea of "nation building" - ideas about which, it might be said, are, in any case, far removed from the concerns of the Symphony performed (rather well, I thought) in this Prom.
                      Elgar was not a highly educated man, ferney, and I accept that his ideas were naive, even shallow, in some respects. He was an emotional man and , perhaps, well- endowed in terms of emotional literacy. HIs portrayal of Falstaff is masterly and not at all naive.

                      Yes, let's get back to the Concert: I loved the playing of the BBC SO and Oramo's interpretations of all three works. ( I've avoided commenting on the pianist as my opinions are conflicted and I await guidance from our man at the front, or in the stalls, Cali, whose knowledge of French music and its interpretation, carries weight and authority on this blog site.)

                      It was the Third symphony that brought Elgar: national builder into focus in my mind. I heard in some of its brassy moments, echoes of chivalry and knights of olde. There is something reflective about the piece, of Elgar looking across his work to a past of.... well, nation building!
                      Last edited by edashtav; 23-08-17, 07:31.

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                      • edashtav
                        Full Member
                        • Jul 2012
                        • 3667

                        #26
                        Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                        ... but what he was 'building' was a vision that suited his aspirations and those of parts of the population. That's not what I wd call building or forming a 'nation'...


                        .
                        Few people, or governments, create a nation by their own efforts, but many contribute something. Would you deny, vinteuil, that 'Land of Hope and Glory' did contribute to some folks' vision of Britain?

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                        • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                          Gone fishin'
                          • Sep 2011
                          • 30163

                          #27
                          Originally posted by edashtav View Post
                          It was the Third symphony that brought Elgar: national builder into focus in my mind. I heard in some of its brassy moments, echoes of chivalry and knights of olde. There is something reflective about the piece, of Elgar looking across his work to a past of.... well, nation building!
                          Oh, dear! I don't hear any of this, I'm very, very glad to say.
                          [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                          • Bryn
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 24688

                            #28
                            Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                            Oh, dear! I don't hear any of this, I'm very, very glad to say.
                            Yes, I fear this seems more something ed is bringing to Elgar than Elgar is bringing to ed.

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                            • vinteuil
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 12778

                              #29
                              Originally posted by edashtav View Post
                              . Would you deny, vinteuil, that 'Land of Hope and Glory' did contribute to some folks' vision of Britain?
                              ... to 'some folks', no doubt. More's the pity.

                              But this is not 'nation building'.


                              I am told this is good - and the use of the word 'forging' in the title is significant...





                              .

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                              • edashtav
                                Full Member
                                • Jul 2012
                                • 3667

                                #30
                                Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                                ... to 'some folks', no doubt. More's the pity.

                                But this is not 'nation building'.


                                I am told this is good - and the use of the word 'forging' in the title is significant...





                                .
                                We're talking at cross purposes, vinteuil, you at the national, political level, and I'm rambling about the people's notions of nation.

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