Originally posted by edashtav
View Post
Prom 51 - 22.08.17: Sibelius, Saint-Saens and Elgar–Payne
Collapse
X
-
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]
-
-
Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View PostOh dear - I had thought that you meant that Elgar and Sibelius were similar in their (very different) ways of building Musical respect for their respective nations - but I don't think that "Nation Building" is the right expression for the "patriotic" works you cite, ed: the conditions of their respective nations was so different - Finland emerging as a Nation from centuries of dominance by Sweden and Russia; England possessing vast territorial colonies (so that it hardly needed "building"). If this "patriotic" aspect is your criteria, why not include Saint-Saens (with his A la France, Hymn a Jean d'Arc, My Land, Vive la France, La Francais, Victoire!, etc) as a "Nation Builder", too?
As for Saint-Saens, he was more than just a patriot, he loved Britain , too, and wrote a Coronation March for us!
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by edashtav View PostI see your point, ferney, but I'm not going to throw away my nation building term without a fight as there are different phases to nation building, it is a continuing process not an initial one-off, I would term that nation forming. Nation building is the process of building a spirit of "who we are" and I feel that Elgar both drew on past history and events in his own time to strengthen what being English and British meant to Britons in late Victorian / Edwardian times.
As for Saint-Saens, he was more than just a patriot, he loved Britain , too, and wrote a Coronation March for us![FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View PostBut then Sibelius (whom you coupled with Elgar as "similar") is a "nation former" by your definition rather than a "builder" - but, then, I'm not convinced by your definition(s).
But, by that criterion, Elgar is disqualified as a "nation builder" because he was "more than just a patriot" who wrote Polonia, Le Drapeau Belge, and even Alassio.
Works can exist in the intersection of "nation building" and "patriotic", the two qualities are not mutually exclusive.
You are pushing me to create exclusive sets whereas I see my definitions intersecting. Another instance: nation formation intersects with nation building, some might say the former was a subset of the latter.
I do admire and accept your addition of Saint-Saens to what has become "THE GANG OF THREE" nation builders!
I should have added The Spirit of England to my examples of Elgar, the nation builder.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by vinteuil View Post... not a Britain I identify with, nor would wish to .
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by vinteuil View Post... not a Britain I identify with, nor would wish to .
.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by edashtav View PostElgar was building a Jingoistic nation for his times: it is difficult to listen to Crown of India and feel better about Britain!
.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View PostNor I - but it is an aspect of identity that Elgar (whose "people" were in "trade", and RCs to boot) wished to be a part of. But, with respect to ed, I think that he has expressed a rather naive idea of "nation building" - ideas about which, it might be said, are, in any case, far removed from the concerns of the Symphony performed (rather well, I thought) in this Prom.
Yes, let's get back to the Concert: I loved the playing of the BBC SO and Oramo's interpretations of all three works. ( I've avoided commenting on the pianist as my opinions are conflicted and I await guidance from our man at the front, or in the stalls, Cali, whose knowledge of French music and its interpretation, carries weight and authority on this blog site.)
It was the Third symphony that brought Elgar: national builder into focus in my mind. I heard in some of its brassy moments, echoes of chivalry and knights of olde. There is something reflective about the piece, of Elgar looking across his work to a past of.... well, nation building!Last edited by edashtav; 23-08-17, 07:31.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by vinteuil View Post... but what he was 'building' was a vision that suited his aspirations and those of parts of the population. That's not what I wd call building or forming a 'nation'...
.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by edashtav View PostIt was the Third symphony that brought Elgar: national builder into focus in my mind. I heard in some of its brassy moments, echoes of chivalry and knights of olde. There is something reflective about the piece, of Elgar looking across his work to a past of.... well, nation building![FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by edashtav View Post. Would you deny, vinteuil, that 'Land of Hope and Glory' did contribute to some folks' vision of Britain?
But this is not 'nation building'.
I am told this is good - and the use of the word 'forging' in the title is significant...
.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by vinteuil View Post... to 'some folks', no doubt. More's the pity.
But this is not 'nation building'.
I am told this is good - and the use of the word 'forging' in the title is significant...
.
Comment
-
Comment