Prom 49 - 20.08.17: Bach’s St John Passion

[Bryn]

Maybe in my naivety I expect an important Prom performance by a(n) HIPP ensemble to give us a composer's first, original version, which was for 2 viole d'amore. The later 'arrangement' ( as Bryn would put it) made and clearly sanctioned by Bach seemed not to work too well in the context of this Prom concert. Although I appreciate what you say about the tuning of these instruments, I note that several minutes went by while Jonathan Manson tuned his viola da gamba before his splendid performance. In the context of an already long concert I would have happily had a 'listening rest' while the 'd'amores' were tuned so that we could have had the aural benefit of JSB's original version.

I readily admit that I would have preferred to hear viole d'amore, but thought the muted violins were played with appropriate style.

[BBMmk2]

[QUOTE=ferneyhoughgeliebte;634879]If they were, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, would it?

But I don't think that anyone wishing to so appeal would have chosen the St John Passion as the ideal work: "Hey! C'mon, guys! There's this groovy 150 minute piece by Bach - AND you get to sing along with the Hymns!"[/QUOTE

Indeed Ferney! It's so different from the St Matthew

[Caussade]

[QUOTE=Tony;634919]Maybe in my naivety I expect an important Prom performance by a(n) HIPP ensemble to give us a composer's first, original version, which was for 2 viole d'amore. The later 'arrangement' ( as Bryn would put it) made and clearly sanctioned by Bach seemed not to work too well in the context of this Prom concert. Although I appreciate what you say about the tuning of these instruments, I note that several minutes went by while Jonathan Manson tuned his viola da gamba before his splendid performance. In the context of an already long concert I would have happily had a 'listening rest' while the 'd'amores' were tuned so that we could have had the aural benefit of JSB's original version.[/QUOTE

Except that in other, more fundamental respects, last night wasn't using the original 1724 version of the work- no one ever does. Bach made substantial textual revisions at various points in his life and the 1724 text differs in important respects from the text usually presented in performance, which is, crudely put, an amalgam of his various tinkerings with the score (including a few readings that Bach incorporated into an aborted 1739 revision, but never heard performed). The point about audibility remains: and if you thought the gamba tuning lasted a while (it was actually less than one minute) that was as a moment compared to the strivings necessary to get two d'amores in tune. It would have been excruciating for a TV audience and like it or not these considerations have to come into play on an occasion like this.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Thanks

So to say that they were "tastelessly amplified" wouldn't really be true, would it?
One might think that the balance wasn't what you would like BUT that's not the same thing at all.

That isn't what I meant (and I suspect you know it). I think it was the inadequate placing of microphones, giving a skewed balance. This often happens when a small array is placed too close to the performers. This might have been the problem on this occasion.

[edashtav]

Each of us has a right to prefer this or that when it comes to instrumentation, but I wonder whether it is HIPP to insist on viole d'amores simply because they are indicated in an original edition?

John Butt has written, in his book "Playing With History": Adorno suggests that there is little point in reconstructing the instrumental sound of the Baroque since the concept of a 'clearly authentic composition' was not yet established. By this he means that composer's used whatever was to hand, in a world of anarchic pluralistic instrument building; Bach was more content to specify no instrumentation in his late contrapuntal works as if to show the inadequacy of the instrumentarium of his day."

[MrGongGong]

That isn't what I meant (and I suspect you know it). I think it was the inadequate placing of microphones, giving a skewed balance. This often happens when a small array is placed too close to the performers. This might have been the problem on this occasion.

But that's not what you said.
You might have thought there was a problem with the balance but I'm not sure (I was only half watching it so tricky to say) what specific microphones were being used so wouldn't be able to say whether they were "too close" or not.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But that's not what you said.
You might have thought there was a problem with the balance but I'm not sure (I was only half watching it so tricky to say) what specific microphones were being used so wouldn't be able to say whether they were "too close" or not.

OK. Let's put it simply.

The solo voices were extremely loud and powerful.
The obligato solo strings were barely audible.


Possible reasons:
The players were unable to project the sound of their instruments.
The solos singers were used to singing Wagner in Vienna.
The sound engineers were the same ones who failed to balance Mahler 4 in a recent Proms season, by turning it into a horn concerto.

[Bryn]

OK. Let's put it simply.

The solo voices were extremely loud and powerful.
The obligato solo strings were barely audible.


Possible reasons:
The players were unable to project the sound of their instruments.
The solos singers were used to singing Wagner in Vienna.
The sound engineers were the same ones who failed to balance Mahler 4 in a recent Proms season, by turning it into a horn concerto.

Is it the muted violins that you are referring to in reason one?

[doversoul1]

I am surprised to see this photo; the orchestra on one side and the choir on the other. Is this often done?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/aug/21/reformation-day-proms-review

[jean]

It's a bit odd to say (as the reviewer does) that 'Passion music' emerged as a 'dominant form from the Reformation', isn't it?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I am surprised to see this photo; the orchestra on one side and the choir on the other. Is this often done?
https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...y-proms-review

That is interesting. It's quite democratic, and there's no quarrelling about the seating of the second violins. I'm still scanning the photo to see where the BBC has placed its microphones.

[Roger Judd]

I think that I read somewhere that John Butt didn't want his singers miles away from him, behind the instrumentalists, so had them side-by-side on the stage.
RJ

[jean]

And speaking of Passions...this Prom was repeated on TTN last night/this morning, complete with Ecce quomodo moritur justus:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09wvy15

[cloughie]

OK. Let's put it simply.

The solo voices were extremely loud and powerful.
The obligato solo strings were barely audible.


Possible reasons:
The players were unable to project the sound of their instruments.
The solos singers were used to singing Wagner in Vienna.
The sound engineers were the same ones who failed to balance Mahler 4 in a recent Proms season, by turning it into a horn concerto.

Very interesting comments re balance. I recently went a local performance of the work and problem was the reverse in that the female soloists were fight the woodwind the get heard, and additionally the strong soprano section skewed the choral balance.

[Keraulophone]

Very interesting comments re balance. I recently went a local performance of the work and problem was the reverse in that the female soloists were fight the woodwind the get heard, and additionally the strong soprano section skewed the choral balance.

If that was in Truro Cathedral, I’m sure you must be aware that its acoustic favours high voices and all but defeats low ones. If it was the performance on Palm Sunday, I thought it was by some way the most expressive and impressive that the voluntary choir has given.