Prom 49 - 20.08.17: Bach’s St John Passion

[Caussade]

THe 'solo violinist' was actually playing a duet (with mutes on) with the principal 2nd violinist, 'pretending to be a Viola d'amore'!
Why on earth the performance couldn't have employed the 2 'd'amore' players specified by JSB is something to ponder on... Maybe viola d'amore players are too expensive for the BBC? In the immortal words of Private Eye: 'We should be told'!

1. JSB specified both d'amores and muted violins as options for this obbligato, as well as variously organ, lute or harpsichord for the keyboard obbligato in Betrachte. John Butt would be able to tell you off the top of his head what the various permutations of obbligato instruments were in different manifestations of the SJP but I can't, sorry
2. The d'amores would have been played by the same two violinists anyway, as they always are in performances that use them, so cost doesn't enter into it
3. As you will know, d'amores take longer to tune than the duration of the two movements they play in, so I suspect on this occasion the imperatives of not having 5+ very boring minutes of television while sympathetic strings were plucked into line, and the pressing need for whatever instruments played to be audible in the RAH, won the day. I was present at some of the main rehearsal for this concert on Saturday, and several mutes were tried by the violinists in an attempt for them to be audible beyond the front of the platform. It was a problem. If they had used d'amores I daresay some here would have complained about the balance, and the time it took to tune, so you can't win
D'amores sound lovely in these movements, but they are not the most practical of instruments for a live TV broadcast.

[BBMmk2]

I can say that I did enjoy the Prom, as I like the main part, The St John Passion very much and I also looked forward to hearing the Buxtehude pieces as well. In retrospect of the congregational singing, yes this would have taken place, and was interesting to hear, but basically is this the BBC appealing to the masses?

[Bryn]

1. JSB specified both d'amores and muted violins as options for this obbligato, as well as variously organ, lute or harpsichord for the keyboard obbligato in Betrachte. John Butt would be able to tell you off the top of his head what the various permutations of obbligato instruments were in different manifestations of the SJP but I can't, sorry
2. The d'amores would have been played by the same two violinists anyway, as they always are in performances that use them, so cost doesn't enter into it
3. As you will know, d'amores take longer to tune than the duration of the two movements they play in, so I suspect on this occasion the imperatives of not having 5+ very boring minutes of television while sympathetic strings were plucked into line, and the pressing need for whatever instruments played to be audible in the RAH, won the day. I was present at some of the main rehearsal for this concert on Saturday, and several mutes were tried by the violinists in an attempt for them to be audible beyond the front of the platform. It was a problem. If they had used d'amores I daresay some here would have complained about the balance, and the time it took to tune, so you can't win
D'amores sound lovely in these movements, but they are not the most practical of instruments for a live TV broadcast.

Thank you for clarifying these issues. There appear to have been some sadly ill-informed comments in this thread from some who should know much better.

[edashtav]

Enjoyed the performance on R3 - I think SMP did a good not over effusive announcing job (there are those quick to criticise when it's not good so let's be positive also!).

Whilst the standard of announcing has not been uniformly high, there have been more peaks than troughs during the 2017 Proms for which I'm most grateful.

A heavy day on the caring front meant that I could listen only to the last hour, live on R.3. Wow, did I enjoy that! Everything was so freshly imagined. Thank goodness that John Butt translates his musicological talents so smoothly from his Ivory Tower to Consort Albert's bathroom. My soles and my soul were thoroughly refreshed.

[duncan]

In retrospect of the congregational singing, yes this would have taken place, and was interesting to hear, but basically is this the BBC appealing to the masses?

No.

I was in the hall and enjoyed the whole experience very much. A fitting cap to a great weekend as others have said.

The evening was advertised as presenting the SJP 'within a reconstruction of the Lepzig liturgy for Good Friday Vespers, 1739', hence the Buxtehude, Handl and Bach's own choral prelude. The antithesis of appealing to the masses, I'd have said. The only major omission was the sermon, but John Butt encouraged us to preach to each other during the interval!

Given the aim to present the SJP in context rather than in isolation, it would have been perverse not to have had some kind of audience / congregation participation in the chorales. We sang in English, an inauthentic performing compromise, this is Kensington 2017 is not Lepzig 1737, but I'm sure Luther would have approved!

As we all sang a rousing 'Now Thank We All Our God' at the end of our two and a half hour collective experience, this heathen recognised those German Protestant were on to something.

[MrGongGong]

the vocal soloists are tastelessly amplified.

I wasn't there
SO a question for those that were
Was the sound of the vocal soloists going through the PA in the hall ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In retrospect of the congregational singing, yes this would have taken place, and was interesting to hear, but basically is this the BBC appealing to the masses?

If they were, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, would it?

But I don't think that anyone wishing to so appeal would have chosen the St John Passion as the ideal work: "Hey! C'mon, guys! There's this groovy 150 minute piece by Bach - AND you get to sing along with the Hymns!"

[PhilipT]

Was the sound of the vocal soloists going through the PA in the hall ?

No - I noticed no in-Hall amplification whatever. I'm sorry for those listening at home if their enjoyment was spoiled. For me this was the highlight of the season, though I know I've missed several good concerts. As has been said earlier, the soloists did very well. I was particularly impressed with Nicholas Mulroy, who hardly referred to his score at all - this was probably a good thing, as it was visibly falling to pieces in his hands.

[vinteuil]

...is this the BBC appealing to the masses?

... I certainly hope so

http://amzn.eu/5YN8es1

.

[MrGongGong]

No - I noticed no in-Hall amplification whatever. I'm sorry for those listening at home if their enjoyment was spoiled. For me this was the highlight of the season, though I know I've missed several good concerts. As has been said earlier, the soloists did very well. I was particularly impressed with Nicholas Mulroy, who hardly referred to his score at all - this was probably a good thing, as it was visibly falling to pieces in his hands.

Thanks

So to say that they were "tastelessly amplified" wouldn't really be true, would it?
One might think that the balance wasn't what you would like BUT that's not the same thing at all.

[Bryn]

Thanks

So to say that they were "tastelessly amplified" wouldn't really be true, would it?
One might think that the balance wasn't what you would like BUT that's not the same thing at all.

Given the instruments and HIPP employed, I found no particular problems with the BBC FOUR sound (I can't get HD here, so have to make do with what I think is 192 kbps mp2). I will listen to the Radio 3 'Concert Sound' version later.

[doversoul1]

I had never been overly convinced by Dunedin Consort’s Bach because, to me, the chorus made up with the few singers who sing the solo parts didn’t convey the power of the crowd. It was very different yesterday. A chorus of 36 singers, according to S M-P. It sounded just right (to me). And I agree; S M-P’s presentation was much better than he usual incredible-filled announcement. Well done, too, for calling the audience the congregation.

[ed.]
An article by John Butt:
The Reformation: classical music's punk moment

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/aug/18/the-reformation-classical-musics-punk-moment

[Tony Halstead]

1. JSB specified both d'amores and muted violins as options for this obbligato, as well as variously organ, lute or harpsichord for the keyboard obbligato in Betrachte. John Butt would be able to tell you off the top of his head what the various permutations of obbligato instruments were in different manifestations of the SJP but I can't, sorry
2. The d'amores would have been played by the same two violinists anyway, as they always are in performances that use them, so cost doesn't enter into it
3. As you will know, d'amores take longer to tune than the duration of the two movements they play in, so I suspect on this occasion the imperatives of not having 5+ very boring minutes of television while sympathetic strings were plucked into line, and the pressing need for whatever instruments played to be audible in the RAH, won the day. I was present at some of the main rehearsal for this concert on Saturday, and several mutes were tried by the violinists in an attempt for them to be audible beyond the front of the platform. It was a problem. If they had used d'amores I daresay some here would have complained about the balance, and the time it took to tune, so you can't win
D'amores sound lovely in these movements, but they are not the most practical of instruments for a live TV broadcast.

Maybe in my naivety I expect an important Prom performance by a(n) HIPP ensemble to give us a composer's first, original version, which was for 2 viole d'amore. The later 'arrangement' ( as Bryn would put it) made and clearly sanctioned by Bach seemed not to work too well in the context of this Prom concert. Although I appreciate what you say about the tuning of these instruments, I note that several minutes went by while Jonathan Manson tuned his viola da gamba before his splendid performance. In the context of an already long concert I would have happily had a 'listening rest' while the 'd'amores' were tuned so that we could have had the aural benefit of JSB's original version.

[Padraig]

I just wanted to record my enjoyment of the television performance. I have to confess that this was my first time to hear the St John Passion and I found it an uplifting experience in itself, and in the quiet intensity and skill of all involved.

[Tony Halstead]

I just wanted to record my enjoyment of the television performance. I have to confess that this was my first time to hear the St John Passion and I found it an uplifting experience in itself, and in the quiet intensity and skill of all involved.

Yes, I do agree with you ( mostly...!) but I think that perhaps Nicholas Mulroy might feel a bit 'short-changed' by your 'quiet intensity' description... On my TV set it did seem that most of the time he was singing as if his life depended on it!