Proms 34 & 35 - 11.08.17: John Wilson conducts Oklahoma!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't know if "rationale" is the right word, but aren't the "Musicals" events simply an extension/"updating" of the G&S evenings that were a feature of the Proms from 1895?

[BBMmk2]

I don't know if "rationale" is the right word, but aren't the "Musicals" events simply an extension/"updating" of the G&S evenings that were a feature of the Proms from 1895?

Your probably right there, Ferney. At least these evenings are well produced.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't know if "rationale" is the right word, but aren't the "Musicals" events simply an extension/"updating" of the G&S evenings that were a feature of the Proms from 1895?

I remember those. They were broadcast on Radio 2

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I remember those. They were broadcast on Radio 2

Not in 1895, they weren't!

(I'd forgotten that I'd had to retune for the G&S Proms - what did R3 broadcast on those evenings?)

[Pianorak]

These semi-staged performances work for me far better than the full set. The performers appear far closer to home, and easy to get to grips with the individuals.

What else was there to like? The dancing was first class, in my view. Scarlet Strallen was also an excellent dancer. A star in the making, if she is not, already.

[Ferretfancy]

"Oklahoma" was a smash hit in New York but, for some reason, we in post-war Britain were not allowed to see it staged or hear the music in this country until the copyrite conditions had bee met.

But in 1946, my big sister (the actress in Stars in Battledress) was sent by ENSA in a party to entertain the troops in India.

When she returned some three months later, she brought with her a set of 10" records, on a Decca Red Label of the original cast of Oklahoma.

So we did have all of the songs and much of the action months before the show was staged in this country.

The original cast included Shirley Jones as the young heroine and Celeste Holm as "Aido Annie"


(I don't remember the names of all the other characters, but we still have that set of records somewhere - maybe my other sister or big brother may have them) - I'll ask them to do a search.

So of course, I approached last night's prom with a certain amount of caution, but, knowing what it could and would have sounded like, I was very disappointed.

All that it did for me was to re-enforce my view that opera and musicals belong in the theatre and not on the concert platform.

So old Hornspieler is whinging again and possibly upsetting quite a few forumites.

Sorry, but that was a travesty of a performance of probably the best musical ever for storyline, music and characterisation written by Rodgers and Hammerstein.

HS

No complaints about the orchestra or John Wilson's conducting but, apart from the overture, what was there to like?

Most of it, from where I was standing. I do have a memory of one of the first London performances, in 1947, I think. As a child the bit I enjoyed most was the scene where Jud's pin ups came to dancing life. I tried to figure how it was done. Curley was played by a certain Harold Keel before he changed his name.

[french frank]

I don't know if "rationale" is the right word, but aren't the "Musicals" events simply an extension/"updating" of the G&S evenings that were a feature of the Proms from 1895?

The difference is that they included excerpts, along with Greater and Lesser Known 'classical' composers. The works were shorter and more numerous in the early days when Newman and Wood were trying to 'create' an audience for 'serious'/'good' [sorry - they meant 'classical'] music. Complete performances of G&S started in the mid 1950s-60s, as far as I can see.

If we are back to the time where the need is again to 'create' an audience (and it seems it is), there would be less rationale for complete concerts to be 'non-classical' (e.g. the Ibiza Prom, David Bowie) rather than a mix. I think that the argument is stronger for the survival of popularity in music that has become generationally 'old', too old to feature in outlets which concentrate on contemporary popular.

There becomes an overlap between the terms 'classical' and 'classic'. 'Old classic' which involves an orchestra is now 'classical'.

[gradus]

It was great if a little over-long and I understood why shorter versions are invariably performed. I hope we can look forward to more semi-staged R and H in coming seasons. As ever John Wilson and the orchestra were excellent if a little backward in sound balance- there is no shortage of lovely music and scoring as well as singing.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Not in 1895, they weren't! :pinkeye:

I can't remember that - honestly.

(I'd forgotten that I'd had to retune for the G&S Proms - what did R3 broadcast on those evenings?)

I can't remember that either, though the Third Programme had much more drama then. Radio 4 also broadcast regular live evening concerts.
(Radio 3 is in danger of becoming like a viola part - playing the bits no-one else wants. This is a general comment, and is not directed at the concert in this thread.)

[Stanley Stewart]

A shared experience, HS. A neighbour received the Decca 78s recording of Oklahoma! from The States at the end of the war when I was still a schoolboy and quickly became familiar with the engaging lyrics. I adored last night's production in so many aspects and glad to record it on HD. I've just been listening to the original Broadway 1943 cast CD and think you will find that Joan Roberts played the ingenue, Laurey, with Celeste Holm as Ado Annie, but Shirley Jones was featured as Laurey in the 1955 film version.

[french frank]

Not in 1895, they weren't!

(I'd forgotten that I'd had to retune for the G&S Proms - what did R3 broadcast on those evenings?)

Actually, I can't find any complete performances until really quite recently (the 2000s). There were complete G&S concerts but they included bits from several operettas.

Sat 10th Aug 1963, Prom 19, Pinafore, Pirates, Iolanthe, Gondoliers &c.

The Third Programme (as it was) had an 'Invitation Concert'. Part I Monteverdi et al., Part II Gabrieli et al., and in the interval: Arthur Schopenhauer by FC Copleston SJ:

Father Copleston's, estimate of Schopenhauer's philosophy accompanies Patrick Gardiner 's book on Schopenhauer, lately published in a paperback edition.

[Ferretfancy]

There were some very good things in the 1955 film version. although Rod Steiger as Jud Fry seemed to have strayed in from On the Waterfront. Gene Nelson was a fine hoofer as Will Parker, a dancer who never quite got his Hollywood due. This was the first musical to be shot in Todd-AO, although most of us had to make do with a reduced format, just as we now do with the Imax print of Dunkirk
Plenty of charm from Shirley Jones and Gordon MacCrae and lots of nice scene stealing from Eddie Albert.
Gloria Grahame was delightful.

[Stanley Stewart]

I recall having to travel to Leeds in the mid 50s to see the film version of Oklahoma! in 70mm at the Majestic Cinema, opposite the City Station. However, I'd settled in London a few years later and always went to the Dominion, Tottenham Ct Rd to see 70mm prints for several decades.

Spent a few hours this afternoon revisiting a splendid book, Oklahoma! - the Making of an American Musical, 2007, Yale University Press, which I had to buy as an import. Examines the vast documentary evidence required to understand how a pioneering musical was developed, the legends surrounding the work and how mythology became inextricably linked with reality as the production came to light. Confirmed, too, that Joan Roberts played the original Laurie, presumably an early casting as she mentions the large number of auditions for the role of Curly she had to partner. But, of course, the great Alfred Drake played on Broadway and we had to wait until 1953 to see his extraordinary stage presence in Kismet at the Stoll Theatre. A dynamic performer.

[Conchis]

Carmen is no more an opera than Oklahoma! is. For consistency, people who object to a Proms performance of Oklahoma! ought to object to a Proms performance of Carmen on similar grounds. They're both 'musicals'.