Prom 30 - 7.08.17: Walton – Belshazzar’s Feast

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  • ferneyhoughgeliebte
    Gone fishin'
    • Sep 2011
    • 30163

    #31
    Originally posted by rauschwerk View Post
    Mozart's first, for a start, and probably other early Mozart symphonies too. It seems to have originated with G B Sammartini. Not revolutionary in 1800. then.
    Well, of course not - now read the rest of the statement you quote from my #15, and then answer the full question.
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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    • ferneyhoughgeliebte
      Gone fishin'
      • Sep 2011
      • 30163

      #32
      Originally posted by Bryn View Post
      Stirred, not shaken, I think.
      Isn't that Capel Bond?
      [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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      • rauschwerk
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 1480

        #33
        Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
        ...and yet has a "retransition" in the Recapitulation that does modulate?
        I'm confused by this part of your question. I agree that earlier composers would have at this point generally continued immediately with the second group in the home key after the half close at the end of the transition, rather than writing a modulatory passage (though isn't that passage a 'secondary development' rather than a 'retransition'? Forgive my ignorance).

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        • Pulcinella
          Host
          • Feb 2014
          • 10892

          #34
          I'm quite sure I didn't know all this about Beethoven 1 when I studied it (or rather the first two movements) as one of the set works for NUJMB O level back in 1966!
          Whether this says more about me or my school music teacher I'm not sure, but I can remember not recognising the quote to identify on the paper (from the introduction) and I think I plumped for answering questions on the Holberg Suite and the Baal scene from Elijah instead.
          I must look and see if Annie O Warburton did an analysis.

          PS: Yes she did. Revolutionary tendencies mentioned.
          With hindsight (trying to remember) I think we concentrated in class on the Grieg and the Mendelssohn.
          I can't imagine being expected to study all three works/extracts in depth (even back then!).
          Last edited by Pulcinella; 08-08-17, 12:52. Reason: PS added.

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          • Eine Alpensinfonie
            Host
            • Nov 2010
            • 20570

            #35
            Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post
            I'm quite sure I didn't know all this about Beethoven 1 when I studied it (or rather the first two movements) as one of the set works for NUJMB O level back in 1966!
            I remember it well, along with Grieg's Holberg Suite and a late Mozart piano sonata.

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            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
              Gone fishin'
              • Sep 2011
              • 30163

              #36
              Originally posted by rauschwerk View Post
              I'm confused by this part of your question. I agree that earlier composers would have at this point generally continued immediately with the second group in the home key after the half close at the end of the transition, rather than writing a modulatory passage (though isn't that passage a 'secondary development' rather than a 'retransition'? Forgive my ignorance).
              My declining years, rather than your ignorance, rauschy - yes, I am referring to the "Secondary Development"; the Recap's "equivalent" of the Expo's "Transition". (The "Retransition" is the bit at the end of the Development leading into the Recap. Serves me right for replying to ed's comment whilst my jowls were still wobbling.

              What Beethoven has done here is combined an older type of Transition (the "ending in the Tonic on an Imperfect Cadence, but then continuing in the Dominant region as if there's been a 'modulation'") in the Exposition, but then completely removed that material and replaced it with something different - bars 23 - 52 are never heard after the Exposition, completely new material replaces them in bars 188 - 205; the irony being that the chromatically slithering chords in the woodwinds would have been much better suited to a modulation away from the Tonic - the sort of material that a composer who was merely "learning the basics from his masters" would have used in the Expo, not here - and something more like the non-Modulating Transition material in the Exposition more "appropriate" here. (Something closer to Sammartini is presented in the Second Movement, where the First Group similarly ends with an interrupted cadence, from which the Second Group continues in the Dominant as if there had been a "modulation" - the Recap here doesn't involve the replacement of material, but the addition of the Counter-Subject to the return of the fugato theme creates its own deviations from expectations.)

              And then there's the balancing out of the Introduction (in which the Tonic is marginalised - appearing only three times, and only once in root position) with the Movement's Coda (which consists of "22" bars of nothing but the Tonic triad) - and that reminds me; I do not know any "Sonata Form" First Group before this work in which the First Group itself is so eager to get away from the Tonic. Beethoven is in complete command of the new ways he wants to explore what a Symphony can do, right from the start. This is a fantastically original and imaginative masterpiece that is often undervalued because the composer went on to even greater things - that makes me mutter sulkily.
              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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              • BBMmk2
                Late Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 20908

                #37
                I must be the odd one out here.
                Don’t cry for me
                I go where music was born

                J S Bach 1685-1750

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                • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                  Gone fishin'
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 30163

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
                  I must be the odd one out here.
                  Oh, no, Bbm - Alpie is equally odd
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                  • Eine Alpensinfonie
                    Host
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 20570

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
                    I must be the odd one out here.
                    What makes you say that?

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                    • Eine Alpensinfonie
                      Host
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 20570

                      #40
                      Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                      Oh, no, Bbm - Alpie is equally odd
                      We just don't pander to fashion.

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                      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                        Gone fishin'
                        • Sep 2011
                        • 30163

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                        We just don't pander to fashion.
                        - nor I

                        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                        • Eine Alpensinfonie
                          Host
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 20570

                          #42
                          Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                          - nor I

                          Gosh, you've changed since we last met.

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                          • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                            Gone fishin'
                            • Sep 2011
                            • 30163

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                            Gosh, you've changed since we last met.
                            Well, since you left Yorkshire, I thought I'd better up my game for God's own county.
                            [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                            • Eine Alpensinfonie
                              Host
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 20570

                              #44
                              Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                              Well, since you left Yorkshire, I thought I'd better up my game for God's own county.

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                              • EdgeleyRob
                                Guest
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 12180

                                #45
                                Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                                Crumbs, Edgey! Careful with the initials there - for a moment I thought I'd missed something!
                                Oops sorry to build up your hopes !

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