Prom 21 - 30.07.17: Beethoven – Symphony No. 9, ‘Choral’

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Music cannot generally be divorced from its context - whether historical or contemporaneous .

There's still plenty to talk about, without getting into another political dogfight.

[Alain Maréchal]

I'm a bit "lost" here, Alain - I'm talking about the section from bar 331 (just before the Tenor's solo) - the Double Basses aren't playing at this point*; only the woodwinds (minus Flutes), Horns and percussion.

I read the words <<the highest woodwind joining the orchestra at the same time as the lowest >> and, being literal, thought that "joining the orchestra" referred to the entire work. My apologies for any confusion. In the orchestral development of the "Ode tune", before the Brt recit., the Cfg is doubling the Double Basses, but I am now doubting my score. I'm not sure that these matter very much: I suspect that long before Mahler conductors would have adjusted the scoring as the need arose. ("sorry Herr Kapellmeister, the Contrabassoon was dropped into the Hase last night, as was the player").

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I read the words <<the highest woodwind joining the orchestra at the same time as the lowest >> and, being literal, thought that "joining the orchestra" referred to the entire work. My apologies for any confusion. In the orchestral development of the "Ode tune", before the Brt recit., the Cfg is doubling the Double Basses, but I am now doubting my score. I'm not sure that these matter very much: I suspect that long before Mahler conductors would have adjusted the scoring as the need arose. ("sorry Herr Kapellmeister, the Contrabassoon was dropped into the Hase last night, as was the player").

- the "misleading" is entirely of my own inaccuracy/inconsistency. The Cfg is, of course, present right at the start of the Finale, where it has the very lowest notes of the "shrieking Fanfare".

I think that you're precisely correct about performances adjusting scoring to tailor to the requirements & emergencies of the day - to say nothing of Bernstein's Ode to Freedom.

[Alain Maréchal]

to say nothing of Bernstein's Ode to Freedom.

I certainly prefer to say nothing about it!

[jayne lee wilson]

And capitalism, globalisation, the military-industrial complex...

Yes! All vanquished at a stroke as we ascend swiftly to that shining, floating Castle of Independence called Brexit! ....At the last count, away off in the mid-2020s somewhere....
(All part of the Myth of Political Perfectibility...)

[jayne lee wilson]

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

Well re. GB/EU you're right about that last one at least.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4us9pD3PB0

Music has nothing to do with politics, oh, no....

[Prommer]

Well re. GB/EU you're right about that last one at least.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4us9pD3PB0

Music has nothing to do with politics, oh, no....

I don't subscribe to the notion that one can separate music from politics entirely. But an opera entitled Nixon in China is a giveaway.

The Ninth was not composed as an ode to the EU. The Ode to Joy is about the brotherhood of man. The EU has chosen to appropriate it.

What has the brotherhood of man as a philosophical concept specifically to do with the EU? Are they co-terminous? Is everyone outside the EU to be excluded?

[Prommer]

to say nothing of Bernstein's Ode to Freedom.

Do we think this had any validity?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Do we think this had any validity?

You first (Well; second, after Alain.)

[Prommer]

You first (Well; second, after Alain.)

I have a vague notion that Freiheit was replaced with Freude? Before saying more, is that even true?

So: was Bernstein's act one of excavation/authentication, especially poignant in the moment, or pure fiction and opportunism?

[Bryn]

I have a vague notion that Freiheit was replaced with Freunde? ...

Thayer certainly thought it possible. However, the Schiller Institute's site appears to make no mention of such an early draft. Sorry to say, I have no access to https://www.jstor.org/stable/4057486...n_tab_contents

[jayne lee wilson]

I don't subscribe to the notion that one can separate music from politics entirely. But an opera entitled Nixon in China is a giveaway.

The Ninth was not composed as an ode to the EU. The Ode to Joy is about the brotherhood of man. The EU has chosen to appropriate it.

What has the brotherhood of man as a philosophical concept specifically to do with the EU? Are they co-terminous? Is everyone outside the EU to be excluded?

OK, just to spell it out...

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

"The British People have spoken!"

"The people are the heroes now..."

Geddit?

I feel a thesis-title coming on...
"The Brotherhood of Man and The Will of the People: Neo-Marxist Politics in a Post-Capitalist World"

[Prommer]

Land of Hope and Glory, and Rule Britannia, are reasonably specific.

To take a generalised concept such as the Ode to Joy and to apply it to a specific political institution, is far more dubious.

You have taken a philosophical notion expressed in music, and applied it to a political order.

[Bryn]

OK, just to spell it out...

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

"The British People have spoken!"

"The people are the heroes now..."

Geddit?

I feel a thesis-title coming on...
"The Brotherhood of Man and The Will of the People: Neo-Marxist Politics in a Post-Capitalist World"

Careful with that brick wall, jlw. You could get quite a headache. You must remember, not everyone here is as familiar with Alice Goodman's libretti as you and I.

[teamsaint]

It really would be very good if we could decide either stick to the rule, or have a free for all.