Prom 21 - 30.07.17: Beethoven – Symphony No. 9, ‘Choral’

[jayne lee wilson]

Still got bugger all to do with the EU, either way.

Oh of course not, nothing whatsoever....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthem_of_Europe

[cloughie]

The politics which concerned Beethoven were not "petty" and what other sort of politics is there but the human sort? I can't make any sense of "should" in that sentence. By whose judgement? On whose authority? If Beethoven saw his artistic creations as a way of transcending politics or escaping from real life I have been fundamentally misunderstanding him for the last five decades of my life. I'm pretty sure he would find the statement as meaningless, as do I.

eg Eroica and Napoleon!

[Alain Maréchal]

The piccolo first appears at the "Turkish" Music at bar 343, where it is a solo (giving the theme that is used in the subsequent double fugue)

Not in my Eulenberg score. It is labelled "Fl." and is probably not an abbreviation for "Fl.picc" because in the coda it is marked "Picc. Perhaps this is an error in that edition.

[greenilex]

We must acknowledge that the main thrust of the piece is deist, however...and with a transcendent paternal deity far removed from the cares of "petty humans"?

[Prommer]

Oh of course not, nothing whatsoever....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthem_of_Europe

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

[Barbirollians]

Whether one likes it or not the adoption of the Ode to Joy as the official anthem of Europe means it has associations with the EU and the fundamental principles underlying the project of peace, freedom and security .

[Prommer]

Whether one likes it or not the adoption of the Ode to Joy as the official anthem of Europe means it has associations with the EU and the fundamental principles underlying the project of peace, freedom and security .

And capitalism, globalisation, the military-industrial complex...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Not in my Eulenberg score. It is labelled "Fl." and is probably not an abbreviation for "Fl.picc" because in the coda it is marked "Picc. Perhaps this is an error in that edition.

Probably a "typo" - it's a Piccolo that plays in every performance I've heard; the highest woodwind joining the orchestra at the same time as the lowest (the Contrabassoon, another player who has a lot of Music to listen to before s/he gets to play).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Please stick to the music.

[Bryn]

Not in my Eulenberg score. It is labelled "Fl." and is probably not an abbreviation for "Fl.picc" because in the coda it is marked "Picc. Perhaps this is an error in that edition.

My Del Mar set from Oxfam Kingston should arrive in the next few days. I will see what he came up with as the 'correct' instrumentation at the relevant points.

[Prommer]

Please stick to the music.

Cheerfully!

The link to the collection of codas as played by Furtwangler was interesting. Were his tempi speeding up or slowing down over the years, then? Or was it rather unpredictable and 'in the moment'?

[Alain Maréchal]

Probably a "typo" - it's a Piccolo that plays in every performance I've heard; the highest woodwind joining the orchestra at the same time as the lowest (the Contrabassoon, another player who has a lot of Music to listen to before s/he gets to play).

Again, in Eulenberg, the Cfg appears before the voices: admittedly most of the time it is only reinforcing the double bass line, which I understand was common practice at the time even when not scored. The notes mention that it is another case of something which does not appear in the MS but in the printed score which LvB had checked. I'm aware that there have been more modern critical editions, but I only consulted mine to check on items mentioned in this thread.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Cheerfully!

The link to the collection of codas as played by Furtwangler was interesting. Were his tempi speeding up or slowing down over the years, then? Or was it rather unpredictable and 'in the moment'?

I think the latter. His famous 1948/49 recording of Mozart 40 has possibly the fastest opening movement on record, but a live version of a few years earlier is quite a bit slower.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Again, in Eulenberg, the Cfg appears before the voices

- as does the Piccolo.

admittedly most of the time it is only reinforcing the double bass line, which I understand was common practice at the time even when not scored.

I'm a bit "lost" here, Alain - I'm talking about the section from bar 331 (just before the Tenor's solo) - the Double Basses aren't playing at this point*; only the woodwinds (minus Flutes), Horns and percussion.

The notes mention that it is another case of something which does not appear in the MS but in the printed score which LvB had checked. I'm aware that there have been more modern critical editions, but I only consulted mine to check on items mentioned in this thread.

Yes - Beethoven's use of the Contrabassoon has caused some discussion amongst researchers: it may have been used in performances of the Seventh, although featuring in none of the published scores. (Krivine uses one in his recording.) It may well be that Beethoven thought of adding the instrument in between sending the MS off to the publishers and the appearance of the published edition.

* - EDIT: Aha! The Contarbassoon does double the second Bassoon at this point, so it is indeed performing its usual role of strengthening an colouring the lowest line - as does the Bass Drum, of course.

[Barbirollians]

Please stick to the music.

Music cannot generally be divorced from its context - whether historical or contemporaneous .