Prom 21 - 30.07.17: Beethoven – Symphony No. 9, ‘Choral’

[Bryn]

Do you know Norrington's later SWR live one, Tony? It's a truly great one, stunningly well-recorded (German Radio SQ at its finest) with an unforgettable emotional and dynamic impact! WoW!

And Sir Roger corrects his tempo misreading in the final movement of the LCP recording, an error he openly admits in his notes for the later recording, IIRC. I do wish the Beeb would re-broadcast the television performances of the 9 symphonies (LCO/RN). or better still release them on DVD.

[Conchis]

My memories of Colin Davis live were usually always positive, but his Ninth with the LSO in the 90s was not one of his best. Very routine. I think Brendel played Mozart in the first half so perhaps more time was spent in rehearsal on that.

I was at that one. Brendel played PC 27 in the first half - and very well, too, if memory serves. And it was 1999.

It remains the only time I've heard the 9th in concert and I don't recall it as a poor performance; but then, I had (and still have) no comparative standard of 'live' performance.

[EdgeleyRob]

Jayne, if you'd said the Eroica I would agree with you, as that was the first big symphony, but for reasons I do not know as soon as the first voice comes into the finale I've a need for the off switch, and it's not just the fact there are voices in symphonies - Mahler 2,3 and 4 are fine, though after all these years I still don't get 8. i think the Eroica and Berlioz Fantastique* were the Symphonic milestones of the earlier C18th that led to the later Symphonic giants.
*They were two works on first hearing in my teens c1961/2 which made me go wow!

Same here,as soon as the singing starts I cringe.
I can't explain why,almost sounds vulgar in parts,not the right word probably but I just don't like the sound it makes,that Turkish music thingy is like fingernails on a blackboard to me.
The rest of the Symphony is hairs on the back of the neck stuff,as are some parts of the finale.
Each to their own.

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne, if you'd said the Eroica I would agree with you, as that was the first big symphony, but for reasons I do not know as soon as the first voice comes into the finale I've a need for the off switch, and it's not just the fact there are voices in symphonies - Mahler 2,3 and 4 are fine, though after all these years I still don't get 8. i think the Eroica and Berlioz Fantastique* were the Symphonic milestones of the earlier C18th that led to the later Symphonic giants.
*They were two works on first hearing in my teens c1961/2 which made me go wow!

Fine - but not borne out by the historic evidence as I touched on, and which you quote, above..... in fact these present, contemporaneous reactions to the 9th - stopping after 3 movements, reaching for the off switch etc - only go to show how utterly, timelessly revolutionary and radical the piece is.... it will never fit any remotely conventional idée reçue concept of "beautiful classical music"....
It's something quite new - a vast, expanded, multiform symphonic apotheosis of popular song.
Beethoven was always ahead of the game, and still is....!

"An absolutely contemporary piece of music that will be contemporary for ever...." said Stravinsky of Beethoven's Grosse Fugue...

Dunno what HE thought of the 9th Symphony but the description seems equally apt, if not more so...
When criticism is aimed at such towering, radical (or just very popular) masterpieces of this kind, I always think of Basil Bunting's poem about Ezra Pound's Cantos....

"On the Flyleaf of Pounds Cantos, from Odes I:37 (1949)

There are the Alps. What is there to say about them?
They don't make sense. Fatal glaciers, crags cranks climb,
jumbled boulder and weed, pasture and boulder, scree,
et l'on entend, maybe, le refrain joyeux et léger.(**)
Who knows what the ice will have scraped on the rock it is smoothing?
There they are, you will have to go a long way round
if you want to avoid them.
It takes some getting used to. There are the Alps,
fools! Sit down and wait for them to crumble!"

(**) "and one hears, (maybe), the joyful and uplifting chorus"

***

The Ode to Joy shows no signs of crumbling just yet....

[Tony Halstead]

Do you know Norrington's later SWR live one, Tony? It's a truly great one, stunningly well-recorded (German Radio SQ at its finest) with an unforgettable emotional and dynamic impact! WoW!

No, unfortunately I don't, Jayne, but since you praise it so highly, I will get hold of it.
Thanks for the recommendation!

[Goon525]

Jayne
(Seriously off-topic, this) Do you know Mark Knopfler's song about Basil Bunting? From his 'Tracker' album? You might find it interesting.

[BBMmk2]

Anyone know what Mahler's thoughts of Beethoven were, especially the 9th Symphony?

[Bryn]

Anyone know what Mahler's thoughts of Beethoven were, especially the 9th Symphony?

Well he 'updated' the orchestration, so he must have had some sort of regard for it.

See https://davidpickett.wordpress.com/2...inth-symphony/ for instance.

William Steinberg recorded the Mahler re-orchestration back in 1966. It used to be on an MPF or CFP LP IIRC.

Here you go:

[BBMmk2]

Well he 'updated' the orchestration, so he must have had some sort of regard for it.

See https://davidpickett.wordpress.com/2...inth-symphony/ for instance.

William Steinberg recorded the Mahler re-orchestration back in 1966. It used to be on an MPF or CFP LP IIRC.

Here you go:

Many thanks bryn. Will have a look. Should be quite interesting.

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne
(Seriously off-topic, this) Do you know Mark Knopfler's song about Basil Bunting? From his 'Tracker' album? You might find it interesting.

No I didn't know that.... I'll seek it out, thanks....

[jean]

...the latest 'choral novelty' from Sir James MacMillan...

Well, we can always safely be rude about him.

[jean]

...but I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt, because I do like some of his music (the Miserere they played after this afternoon's Prom repeat, for example), but then he told us that this work was inspired by Roger Scruton...

[Bryn]

Hmm. What we have here is, to my ears at least, no more that an Scrote-inspired mash-up of titbits of works by real composers. I think Peter Schickele does this sort of thing rather better.

[jean]

He shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an orchestra, he has no idea what to do with it.

But should we judge him more harshly because we know of the Scrote influence?

[edashtav]

Well, we can always safely be rude about him.

Ha, ha, spot on, Jean.