Prom 21 - 30.07.17: Beethoven – Symphony No. 9, ‘Choral’

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  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    Originally posted by Prommer View Post
    Still got bugger all to do with the EU, either way.
    Oh of course not, nothing whatsoever....

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    • cloughie
      Full Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 22115

      Originally posted by gurnemanz View Post
      The politics which concerned Beethoven were not "petty" and what other sort of politics is there but the human sort? I can't make any sense of "should" in that sentence. By whose judgement? On whose authority? If Beethoven saw his artistic creations as a way of transcending politics or escaping from real life I have been fundamentally misunderstanding him for the last five decades of my life. I'm pretty sure he would find the statement as meaningless, as do I.
      eg Eroica and Napoleon!

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      • Alain Maréchal
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 1286

        Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
        The piccolo first appears at the "Turkish" Music at bar 343, where it is a solo (giving the theme that is used in the subsequent double fugue)
        Not in my Eulenberg score. It is labelled "Fl." and is probably not an abbreviation for "Fl.picc" because in the coda it is marked "Picc. Perhaps this is an error in that edition.

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        • greenilex
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 1626

          We must acknowledge that the main thrust of the piece is deist, however...and with a transcendent paternal deity far removed from the cares of "petty humans"?

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          • Prommer
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 1258

            Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
            Oh of course not, nothing whatsoever....
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthem_of_Europe
            "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

            "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

            "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

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            • Barbirollians
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 11669

              Whether one likes it or not the adoption of the Ode to Joy as the official anthem of Europe means it has associations with the EU and the fundamental principles underlying the project of peace, freedom and security .

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              • Prommer
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 1258

                Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
                Whether one likes it or not the adoption of the Ode to Joy as the official anthem of Europe means it has associations with the EU and the fundamental principles underlying the project of peace, freedom and security .
                And capitalism, globalisation, the military-industrial complex...

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                • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                  Gone fishin'
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 30163

                  Originally posted by Alain Maréchal View Post
                  Not in my Eulenberg score. It is labelled "Fl." and is probably not an abbreviation for "Fl.picc" because in the coda it is marked "Picc. Perhaps this is an error in that edition.
                  Probably a "typo" - it's a Piccolo that plays in every performance I've heard; the highest woodwind joining the orchestra at the same time as the lowest (the Contrabassoon, another player who has a lot of Music to listen to before s/he gets to play).
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                  • Eine Alpensinfonie
                    Host
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 20570

                    Please stick to the music.

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                    • Bryn
                      Banned
                      • Mar 2007
                      • 24688

                      Originally posted by Alain Maréchal View Post
                      Not in my Eulenberg score. It is labelled "Fl." and is probably not an abbreviation for "Fl.picc" because in the coda it is marked "Picc. Perhaps this is an error in that edition.
                      My Del Mar set from Oxfam Kingston should arrive in the next few days. I will see what he came up with as the 'correct' instrumentation at the relevant points.

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                      • Prommer
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 1258

                        Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                        Please stick to the music.
                        Cheerfully!

                        The link to the collection of codas as played by Furtwangler was interesting. Were his tempi speeding up or slowing down over the years, then? Or was it rather unpredictable and 'in the moment'?

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                        • Alain Maréchal
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 1286

                          Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                          Probably a "typo" - it's a Piccolo that plays in every performance I've heard; the highest woodwind joining the orchestra at the same time as the lowest (the Contrabassoon, another player who has a lot of Music to listen to before s/he gets to play).
                          Again, in Eulenberg, the Cfg appears before the voices: admittedly most of the time it is only reinforcing the double bass line, which I understand was common practice at the time even when not scored. The notes mention that it is another case of something which does not appear in the MS but in the printed score which LvB had checked. I'm aware that there have been more modern critical editions, but I only consulted mine to check on items mentioned in this thread.

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                          • Eine Alpensinfonie
                            Host
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 20570

                            Originally posted by Prommer View Post
                            Cheerfully!

                            The link to the collection of codas as played by Furtwangler was interesting. Were his tempi speeding up or slowing down over the years, then? Or was it rather unpredictable and 'in the moment'?
                            I think the latter. His famous 1948/49 recording of Mozart 40 has possibly the fastest opening movement on record, but a live version of a few years earlier is quite a bit slower.

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                            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                              Gone fishin'
                              • Sep 2011
                              • 30163

                              Originally posted by Alain Maréchal View Post
                              Again, in Eulenberg, the Cfg appears before the voices
                              - as does the Piccolo.


                              admittedly most of the time it is only reinforcing the double bass line, which I understand was common practice at the time even when not scored.
                              I'm a bit "lost" here, Alain - I'm talking about the section from bar 331 (just before the Tenor's solo) - the Double Basses aren't playing at this point*; only the woodwinds (minus Flutes), Horns and percussion.

                              The notes mention that it is another case of something which does not appear in the MS but in the printed score which LvB had checked. I'm aware that there have been more modern critical editions, but I only consulted mine to check on items mentioned in this thread.
                              Yes - Beethoven's use of the Contrabassoon has caused some discussion amongst researchers: it may have been used in performances of the Seventh, although featuring in none of the published scores. (Krivine uses one in his recording.) It may well be that Beethoven thought of adding the instrument in between sending the MS off to the publishers and the appearance of the published edition.

                              * - EDIT: Aha! The Contarbassoon does double the second Bassoon at this point, so it is indeed performing its usual role of strengthening an colouring the lowest line - as does the Bass Drum, of course.
                              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                              • Barbirollians
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 11669

                                Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                                Please stick to the music.
                                Music cannot generally be divorced from its context - whether historical or contemporaneous .

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