Prom 21 - 30.07.17: Beethoven – Symphony No. 9, ‘Choral’

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

(Did Arthur Jacob miss it out of the Penguin edition?)

It's there in the score, but tacet for most of the time. It makes a brief appearance in the final Prestissimo.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's there in the score, but tacet for most of the time. It makes a brief appearance in the final Prestissimo.

!!!

[Bert Coules]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSfZQEWDBCQ

Thanks so much for that link: fascinating stuff. And how interesting to hear the sonic differences between the EMI and Bavarian Radio recordings of the 1951 Bayreuth performance: a clear win for the Germans I think.

Funnily enough when the first mention of the accelerated final bars was made above I almost asked then about Toscanini, so it was good to have a performance under him provided at the start of all the Furtwänglers.

[makropulos]

Oh dear, you're so right: "pretty" and "polite". I liked the bass soloist but some of the Choral work sounded stretched to its raw limits.

This is developing into a forgettable Choral.

I'm sorry to say I agree with all you and Bryn have had to say about this safe, rather tepid Beethoven 9. What a shame.

There's been talk of Colin Davis performances at the Proms. The first time I ever heard the work live - and the first Prom I ever attended - was on 13 September 1968. It started with Walton's In Honour of the City of London (which my 11-year-old self thought was terrific), followed by Domenico Scarlatti's Stabat Mater (conducted by Peter Gellhorn), then Beethoven 9, conducted by Colin Davis. I can't say whether it was a particularly good performance or not, but it was certainly an important concert from a personal point of view as it started my Prom-going. My Dad (who took me) was certainly very enthusiastic about it afterwards. So was I, but I didn't have anything with which to make comparisons.

[jayne lee wilson]

How did you listen Makropoulos? (in-hall, HDs, CS, iplayer etc..)

So returning to Prom 21 - Did no-one else feel that the finale, in contradistinction to the earlier movements, just took off? (vide #65...)
(I could detect no obvious manipulation of levels or dynamics via CS... )
Perhaps someone could listen again via iPlayer...

***

....I just tried various iPlayer feeds from 320 kbps HDs to audio/video 2908 kbps, and I see no reason to change my earlier view of the sonically superior CS webcast: that was one TERRIFIC Ode to Joy...!

As for historical, it's a shame Furtwangler gets all the publicity. I feel Toscanini's best 9ths are variously - 1939, NBC, Carnegie; 1941, Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires; NYPO, 1936, probably Carnegie (?) again...
If you have none of these, go for the superb M&A 2013 1939 Cycle box. (The other two are probably best from Pristine, but will require some SQ tolerance....!)

I'm puzzled why anyone would be dismissively critical of Studio 8H; it was the venue for all of the all-but-unsurpassable 1939 Live NBC/Toscanini Cycle except the 9th, its analytical dryness suited many aspects of Toscanini's performance style at that point in its evolution, and, according to that M&A remaster, very well it served them.

***

VINTEUIL.... did your Dad know Alfed Roller's work...?

[edashtav]

In retrospect, Jayne Lee Wilson, whilst I thought the Choral's finale spluttered somewhat hesitantly into life, it did gather speed and momentum and by the end it had gathered exit velocity to soar free of the gravitational pull that had kept the earlier movements earthbound.

[Alain Maréchal]

The final 21 bars are marked Prestisimo, with a fermata on the minim rest at the very end. (That's in my not too trusty 1955 Penguin score.)

The notes to my Eulenberg score say (I paraphrase) that the Prestissimo was struck out by LvB and altered to Presto, but restored to Prestissimo in the printed edition, which was checked by the composer.

Excuse my ignorance, but why is there a fermata on the minim rest at the end of the final bar, and how could that be indicated in performance?

ps re the piccolo: it only plays, as suggested, in the coda, but since the 2 flutes have 2 lines to play, it suggests that, rather than 2nd flute taking up the piccolo, the player has been sitting there throughout waiting for that moment in the sun. Extravagant of LvB, unless he knew of a chorister who could also play piccolo.

[greenilex]

Not usually a fan of J MacM but this was impressive, and I will listen again soon.

Loved the Ninth Symphony, every note, not just the ending. She managed to be warm, enthusiastic, precise and exactly what was needed. Brilliant work all round - I had a ball.

[makropulos]

How did you listen Makropoulos? (in-hall, HDs, CS, iplayer etc..)

So returning to Prom 21 - Did no-one else feel that the finale, in contradistinction to the earlier movements, just took off? (vide #65...)
(I could detect no obvious manipulation of levels or dynamics via CS... )
Perhaps someone could listen again via iPlayer...

***

....I just tried various iPlayer feeds from 320 kbps HDs to audio/video 2908 kbps, and I see no reason to change my earlier view of the sonically superior CS webcast: that was one TERRIFIC Ode to Joy...!

As for historical, it's a shame Furtwangler gets all the publicity. I feel Toscanini's best 9ths are variously - 1939, NBC, Carnegie; 1941, Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires; NYPO, 1936, probably Carnegie (?) again...
If you have none of these, go for the superb M&A 2013 1939 Cycle box. (The other two are probably best from Pristine, but will require some SQ tolerance....!)

I'm puzzled why anyone would be dismissively critical of Studio 8H; it was the venue for all of the all-but-unsurpassable 1939 Live NBC/Toscanini Cycle except the 9th, its analytical dryness suited many aspects of Toscanini's performance style at that point in its evolution, and, according to that M&A remaster, very well it served them.

Jayne - I listened on the iPlayer. Clearly need to try some of the alternatives.

As for historicals, how right you are about AT! The 1939 Choral is, I think, particularly marvellous. And I wouldn't want to be without Erich Kleiber and Fricsay either.

One I haven't yet heard but must pick up before it vanishes is Bruno Walter's 1955 live performance in Vienna (on Orfeo d'Or). Has anyone else given this a try?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks so much for that link: fascinating stuff. And how interesting to hear the sonic differences between the EMI and Bavarian Radio recordings of the 1951 Bayreuth performance: a clear win for the Germans I think.

Funnily enough when the first mention of the accelerated final bars was made above I almost asked then about Toscanini, so it was good to have a performance under him provided at the start of all the Furtwänglers.

- it is fascinating, isn't it! A fellow Forumista (?MrGG?) posted it either here or on the BBC Messageboards a few years ago. I was glad to see it was still available.

[BBMmk2]

Worth hearing?

[jonfan]

Not usually a fan of J MacM but this was impressive, and I will listen again soon.

Loved the Ninth Symphony, every note, not just the ending. She managed to be warm, enthusiastic, precise and exactly what was needed. Brilliant work all round - I had a ball.

Agree totally. The orchestra played brilliantly in the Beethoven, keeping up with the generally spirghtly tempo. 'Joy' from beginning to end.
As always with Sir J M deeply felt. Worth more hearings.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Excuse my ignorance, but why is there a fermata on the minim rest at the end of the final bar, and how could that be indicated in performance?

Perhaps they had "whoops and yowls" in the audience in Beethoven's day too.

Some conductors do manage to de;ay applause at the end of a work, but with such a furious finish, this would be exceptionally difficult!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The Prestissimo marking - and at alla breve, too - is the fastest tempo in the entire work

Metrophobe Alert: the following post makes reference to metronome markings. Those sensitive to such matters should look away now.

It isn't he first Prestissimo marking, though - that appears a few pages earlier at bar 851, where the composer gives a metronome mark of minim = 132. Presumably this is the speed at which the last bars were intended to be played, also.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Perhaps they had "whoops and yowls" in the audience in Beethoven's day too.

- this idea had occurred to me, too. I suppose it's indicating that the reverberation of the last bars (fading into the silence of Beethoven's own deafness, for a "poetic" addition at no extra charge) is a part of the Music. It's not uncommon in Beethoven's Symphonies - with the exceptions of 4, 5, & 7, they end either with a fermata over a "silent" rest, or an additional "empty" bar after the final chord. (The Fifth is the only Symphony to end with a fermata over a sustained note: the unison C.)

The piccolo first appears at the "Turkish" Music at bar 343, where it is a solo (giving the theme that is used in the subsequent double fugue) - it next appears at bar 851, along with the two other flutes, when the other "Turkish" instruments reappear. On the first time, it could be played by one of the flute players, but (as AM rightly points out) not at the end. The piccolo part does indeed need a separate player, as do the Bass Drum & Cymbal, and Triangle parts. I wonder if Beethoven imagined that they'd have their own position on the platform? (The Bass Drum/Cymbal line suggests that one player is sufficient, using an instrument combining Drum and Cymbal - as Mahler also used in his First Symphony [and its Titan Symphonic Poem origins].)