Prom 21 - 30.07.17: Beethoven – Symphony No. 9, ‘Choral’

[Bryn]

There's nothing slow about his 3rd movement of the 9th. He takes it at quite a brisk tempo, as was demonstrated in BaL.

When you write "quite a brisk tempo", does that mean Klemperer approached the composer's indicated tempo for once? Surely not?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When you write "quite a brisk tempo", does that mean Klemperer approached the composer's indicated tempo for once? Surely not?

Quite possibly, though it may well have been Adagio, rather than Adagio Molto.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There's nothing slow about his 3rd movement of the 9th. He takes it at quite a brisk tempo, as was demonstrated in BaL.

Even swifter with the Concertgebeouw in 1956 - at 13mins 53" it's not that much slower than Bruggen on PHILIPS (13min). A little under the (DUCK, ALPIE!) metronome marking of a minim beat per second, but pretty close - and creating a genuine cantabile which is often absent.

[Darkbloom]

And, just to reiterate - Klemperer's "slow" performances are mostly examples of what he did in the last decade of his life in the studio. Live recordings from concerts earlier in his life reveal a very different conductor - the fastest Bruckner #8 I've ever heard in his Cologne recording: the fire of this (complete - unlike the studio amputee) performance!!!

I'll have to find that Cologne Bruckner. His Fourth is a favourite of mine.

I think most of these studio recordings coincided with the times when he was in the down-swing period of his manic depression. When he was 'up' he got into all sorts of trouble, and the high-energy performances presumably reflect that.

[Bryn]

Quite possibly, though it may well have been Adagio, rather than Adagio Molto.

Just to get clarification, which of the available Klemperer recordings of the 9th were you referring to? Those I have to hand vary from 13' 32" to just over 15 minutes. Both seem a bit tardy by the composer's marking, though quite a lick compared to, say, Barenboim's live W-EDO from Berlin effort at over 20 minutes.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'll have to find that Cologne Bruckner. His Fourth is a favourite of mine.

I recently bought it in this format:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Sinfonia-N-Romantica-Sinfonie/dp/B000YCXHJ0

... which is in very acceptable MONO sound and cheaper than a bag of chips in any chip shops around here. The Eighth is wonderful - Four and Seven have some dodgy moments of intonation (particularly in the Brass in #7 - Karajan hadn't yet replaced some elderly players from the Furtwangler years) but are useful supplements to the Studio versions. (He opined sagely - having played both works exactly once each! It's the eighth that has grabbed my attention.)

I think most of these studio recordings coincided with the times when he was in the down-swing period of his manic depression. When he was 'up' he got into all sorts of trouble, and the high-energy performances presumably reflect that.

I wouldn't be surprised. The combination of a down-swing and the monotonies of Studio conditions would certainly "explain" the travesty that is his Mahler #7! (Just as the cuts in the Bruckner Eighth I can only presume to be the result of an "up-swing".)

[jayne lee wilson]

Useful table of Klemperer's Bruckner dates/timings here....

https://www.abruckner.com/recordings/Klemperer/Otto

His earlier versions were a part of an earlier tradition of swifter, more urgently expressive Bruckner, from such as Knappertsbusch and Schuricht, but even Haitink didn't hang about in his 1960s RCOA 8th at around 73'...
Kna's 1955 live 8th on Orfeo takes 70'14, and very thrilling it is.

Klemp's early 60s Philharmonia Mozart & Schubert Symphonies are perhaps a bit relaxed by modern HIPPs standards but certainly not slow - and they work brilliantly on their own, texturally and rhythmically elucidating terms. Conversely, his 1956 Mozart 25 can seem overdriven, unyielding. New Objectivity, indeed.
Even so late as 1968 he charges though a stunning live VPO Bruckner 5th in 76', yet just two weeks later takes nearly 28' over a Schubert 8th in the same concert series... so the picture's a little more occluded than it might seem!

[richardfinegold]

I'll have to find that Cologne Bruckner. His Fourth is a favourite of mine.

I think most of these studio recordings coincided with the times when he was in the down-swing period of his manic depression. When he was 'up' he got into all sorts of trouble, and the high-energy performances presumably reflect that.

I would caution against trying to correlate a given recording or performance with the day to day status of a performer with mental illness

[Prommer]

I would caution against trying to correlate a given recording or performance with the day to day status of a performer with mental illness

Yes, possibly, but could you explain why?

[jayne lee wilson]

I would caution against trying to correlate a given recording or performance with the day to day status of a performer with mental illness

Yes - it can as easily be an escape from the demons as a response to their torments... or simply exist in another dimension beyond the merely personal. (As Jay Gatsby might have said...)

[Darkbloom]

I would caution against trying to correlate a given recording or performance with the day to day status of a performer with mental illness

Fair enough, but I was generally responding to the idea that OK's career followed the typical trajectory of a conductor who was fiery in his youth, only to slow down towards the end of his life. There are accounts of unusually fast performances later on, and I was trying to put them in context, however clumsily.