Prom 10 - 22.07.17: Aurora Orchestra – Beethoven’s ‘Eroica’

[Hornspieler]

I really didn't enjoy this Eroica very much.... too often it seemed just an energetic delivery of the notes and the calculated shifting of dynamic levels. Tempo & phrase were on a very tight leash in the first movement, the development climax was underwhelming, the recap arrived without much éclat....

Still, the funeral march went better - here, I felt the music itself was inspiring the performers to find some tragedy in themselves, lending their playing some inner tragic animation too.
But after that....
All energy and dynamics again. More of that rapid, neutral, inflexible delivery of - the notes, just the notes....
(I recall responding similarly to Beethoven and Mozart performances from such as Pinnock and JEG through the 1990s. But I find more recent recordings from the latter with the LSO and ORR far more engaging).

Do Androids Dream of Electronic Eroicas?

A sensible and measured opinion Jayne

[french frank]

"Who shall decide when doctors disagree?"

[Nick Armstrong]

"Who shall decide when doctors disagree?"

Lawyers

[LeMartinPecheur]

Do Androids Dream of Electronic Eroicas?

Seems they need to http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...D-984012450_uk

[kernelbogey]

"Who shall decide when doctors disagree?"

Indeed.

But... the performance reminds me of why I value TTN so greatly. Whatever the idiosyncracies of the interpretation or playing, there is an immediacy to a live performance which comes across the ether, and which I assume to be the joint creation of musicians and audience. In this case, Garrulous Tom and his colleague with the baton (in case you missed/avoided the first part of Part One} persuaded the audience to sing parts of the first few bars of IV; and to clap some of the rhythms of part of I. I imagine this brought a special kind of sudience/orchestra rapport to the event. The applause at various points suggested this.

Anyone who was in the Hall prepared to comment...?

[french frank]

Lawyers

<smirk>

But it is, in one way, instructive when knowledgeable people have diametrically opposed views on the experience - both the personal enjoyment and the quality of performance. I wonder how generally instructive that is …

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But it is, in one way, instructive when knowledgeable people have diametrically opposed views on the experience - both the personal enjoyment and the quality of performance. I wonder how generally instructive that is …

Welcome to the wonderful world of Building a Library

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But it is, in one way, instructive when knowledgeable people have diametrically opposed views on the experience - both the personal enjoyment and the quality of performance. I wonder how generally instructive that is …

Depends what you mean by "instructive" - aside from matters of fact (say if someone claimed that the 'celli & Basses played out of tune: we can listen again and hear that this is simply not the case, and discount the comment), we decide for ourselves whether a performance was a valid presentation of what Beethoven has communicated in his score. In this case, all matters of "interpretation" can be seen to have their origin in the score - as such, it was a valid performance of the work. It can be "informative" and entertaining to read "diametrically opposed views" - but these merely demonstrate how scrupulous attention to the score, far from resulting in a single "mechanical" performance lacking individuality, instead leads to a rich variety of possibilities, from which we choose those which closest conform to our own ideas of the composer and the work. And this can be "instructive" about aesthetic possibilities and the richness of an Artistic experience, but doesn't necessarily enlighten us very much further about individual art works.

Me? I loved this exhilarating, energetic performance! Yes - listening on headphones to the i-Player recording - the Bassoon (and to a lesser extent, the Clarinets) were very "forward" - as if they were sitting right underneath a microphone, and this skew-whiffed the sound a lot of time: pp passages leapt out louder than mp moments. But the joy and energy - and the incredible detail - of the performance made this one that made the blood course around my veins shouting "WHEEEEEE"!!!!!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Good to hear the performance has a few more fans - despite the over- prominent bassoon. I prefer fast tempi in this work rather than a sedate Klemperesque one . The 1st movt is Allegro Con Brio minim = 60 after all. I think there's a TV film which Rattle and orchestra , try it at that pace and , to their surprise , rather enjoy the result . I also think intonation is going to be a problem with minimum vibrato in a hot Albert Hall where , if musicians reports are to be believed , it's tricky to hear one another . I wasn't aware of huge problems on that score last night - or should I say any more than one would expect from a live HIP? Vibrato covers a multitude of intonation sins doesn't it? There were plenty on show the previous night with a wobbly Leonore and a flat Prisoner's Chorus.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think there's a TV film which Rattle and orchestra , try it at that pace and , to their surprise , rather enjoy the result .

I remember a South Bank Show (or similar) of Rattle and the CBSO rehearsing the Eroica from yonks ago - about thirty years or so. It was the first time Rattle had attempted the work, and claimed that he didn't like the Movement played at the metronome speed, because it reminded him of the Keystone Kops. But yes, as soon as he heard the actual sound of the orchestra, and the lightning flash excitement, he had to reconsider.

It's not just a matter of speed - articulation needs to be attended to, as well. Chailly takes the metronome mark at the nominated speed, but he sounds (to me) gabbled and inarticulate. The Aurorans got it exactly right, I thought.

[makropulos]

Me? I loved this exhilarating, energetic performance! Yes - listening on headphones to the i-Player recording - the Bassoon (and to a lesser extent, the Clarinets) were very "forward" - as if they were sitting right underneath a microphone, and this skew-whiffed the sound a lot of time: pp passages leapt out louder than mp moments. But the joy and energy - and the incredible detail - of the performance made this one that made the blood course around my veins shouting "WHEEEEEE"!!!!!

So glad you had the same reaction I did to this life-affirming performance!

[jayne lee wilson]

Depends what you mean by "instructive" - aside from matters of fact (say if someone claimed that the 'celli & Basses played out of tune: we can listen again and hear that this is simply not the case, and discount the comment), we decide for ourselves whether a performance was a valid presentation of what Beethoven has communicated in his score. In this case, all matters of "interpretation" can be seen to have their origin in the score - as such, it was a valid performance of the work. It can be "informative" and entertaining to read "diametrically opposed views" - but these merely demonstrate how scrupulous attention to the score, far from resulting in a single "mechanical" performance lacking individuality, instead leads to a rich variety of possibilities, from which we choose those which closest conform to our own ideas of the composer and the work. And this can be "instructive" about aesthetic possibilities and the richness of an Artistic experience, but doesn't necessarily enlighten us very much further about individual art works.

Me? I loved this exhilarating, energetic performance! Yes - listening on headphones to the i-Player recording - the Bassoon (and to a lesser extent, the Clarinets) were very "forward" - as if they were sitting right underneath a microphone, and this skew-whiffed the sound a lot of time: pp passages leapt out louder than mp moments. But the joy and energy - and the incredible detail - of the performance made this one that made the blood course around my veins shouting "WHEEEEEE"!!!!!

But how can you tell that attention to the score has been scrupulous, if via iplayer you felt the production "skew-whiffed the sound a lot of the time" and pp passages sounded louder than mp?
As for the "rich variety of possibilities" ... possibilities of what? If you mean "responses", then surely any performance, even a very creative, rubato-rich and subjective one, will also lead to such a range of responses...demonstrably so, in the history of Beethoven reviewing.

As I made clear, for me the performance did indeed lack expressiveness or "individuality" in the quicker movements much of the time. But I didn't simply choose that response - it is part of a rich inter-reaction, a give-and-take of my experience and memory of all the Eroicas I've heard (a very wide range sonically & interpretatively, including HIPPs recordings broadly similar in their approach to this Prom, but which I admire far more) and it is very far from my view of Beethoven or of his Symphony No.3.

[makropulos]

As I made clear, for me the performance did indeed lack expressiveness or "individuality" in the quicker movements much of the time. But I didn't simply choose that response - it is part of a rich inter-reaction, a give-and-take of my experience and memory of all the Eroicas I've heard (a very wide range sonically & interpretatively, including HIPPs recordings broadly similar in their approach to this Prom, but which I admire far more) and it is very far from my view of Beethoven or of his Symphony No.3.

All of which is fair enough, but my response (and I guess ferney's too) was quite different. You reacted as you did and explain that reaction very clearly, but as someone else who has heard a great many Eroicas, including quite a few HIPP ones (going all the way back to the Collegium Aureum LP), what you found inexpressive and lacking individuality in the Aurora account, I found zestful and invigorating - and full of just the individuality you missed. To be honest, musical exploration would be much less interesting if we all agreed about these things.

[underthecountertenor]

Tom is good with a script, without one he's awful.

TS didn't have a script, as far as I could see, during the pre-performance talk. There may have been an autocue, but I don't think so. It seemed that he and NC had scrupulously learned their lines, and gave a very disciplined and well-judged (not patronising) illustrated talk. I was even persuaded, against my grouchy better judgment, to take part in the audience participation bits, which were mercifully brief and reasonably to the point.

On another matter, I haven't listened to the radio broadcast yet. Was there any audible evidence of a kerfuffle during much of Metamorphosen. A chap near me towards the back of the Arena keeled over about 10 minutes in. His partner shouted his name a couple of times, and the medical team quickly arrived. He was tended to on the spot throughout the remaining 15 minutes, with quite a lot of conversation as forms were filled in, many openings of velcro-fastened bags, and occasional loud outbursts from a walkie-talkie. The chap was heaved into a wheelchair during the final bars, and looked ok afterwards if a bit pale. I'm afraid that Metamorphosen went for nothing in the circumstances, as far as I was concerned. I'd be surprised if the high definition uncompressed feed, at least, didn't pick any of it up.

[kernelbogey]

[...] the radio broadcast yet. Was there any audible evidence of a kerfuffle during much of Metamorphosen[?]

Not audible to me.

How distressing to witness this in the Hall.