Prom 9 - 21.07.17: Beethoven – Fidelio

[Bert Coules]

IIRC, it was Mahler who began the practice.

Interesting, thanks. I'm not, of course, setting my opinion up against Mahler's, but I still maintain that, whether or not it was written by Beethoven, whether or not it's linked to the main piece, throwing a completely different bit of music into a longer work is indefensible.

And in any case, is it known just why Mahler did it? Maybe it was to cover an incredibly long scenery change and he absolutely hated having to do it. Hardly a good basis for establishing a tradition.

And a related thought: wasn't it Toscanini who said that tradition was just some idiot's half-recollection of something that was probably incredibly bad in the first place?

[Bert Coules]

I saw it in 1983 at CG with Davis and Vickers, and with Linda Esther Gray as Leonora.

I didn't know that Linda Esther Gray ever worked at the Garden. She was a real loss.

[David-G]

I didn't know that Linda Esther Gray ever worked at the Garden. She was a real loss.

Indeed so. This must have been at the very end of her career. The Fidelio performances were in June 1983. Wikipedia (clearly wrong here) says she retired in 1982.

[makropulos]

And in any case, is it known just why Mahler did it? Maybe it was to cover an incredibly long scenery change and he absolutely hated having to do it. Hardly a good basis for establishing a tradition.

Yes, it is known, and it's quite interesting: in the 1904 Vienna Fidelio Mahler wanted to include Leonore III after the dungeon scene for musical reasons (of Mahler's own, obviously) and this turned out to be a practical decision as well since Roller's set was heavy and took a long time to move (see De La Grange Mahler Vol. 3, pp. 6-7). De La Grange noted that critics were shocked by this insertion, but Richard Strauss approved, declaring that: 'No matter what prompted Mahler and Roller to do what they did, it was in any case exactly the right thing.'

But years before 1904, Leonore III had been inserted between Acts 1 and 2 by Nicolai in Vienna and later (1875) by Hans Richter. More interesting, apparently Anton Seidl inserted it between the two scenes of Act 2, à la Mahler, at the Met in 1890 - so Mahler wasn't the first person to do this.

None of which makes it right, of course! But it's quite intriguing.

[Bert Coules]

That's fascinating stuff. Thanks.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But years before 1904, Leonore III had been inserted between Acts 1 and 2 by Nicolai in Vienna and later (1875) by Hans Richter. More interesting, apparently Anton Seidl inserted it between the two scenes of Act 2, à la Mahler, at the Met in 1890 - so Mahler wasn't the first person to do this.

- I didn't know this (?"these"?)

[Pulcinella]

- I didn't know this (?"these"?)

I didn't know 'that' either.
(Solves the problem, surely?)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I didn't know 'that' either.
(Solves the problem, surely?)

Not for me - I'd've had to write "I didn't know that (?'them'?)"

[Pulcinella]

Not for me - I'd've had to write "I didn't know that (?'them'?)"

Oh, I think that that that can be taken as plural.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh, I think that that that can be taken as plural.

Well, if there were three or more facts involved, I wouldn't've had a problem saying "any of that" - but this is just me.

[Bert Coules]

Ricarda Merbeth might have dressed for the part a tad more. Her stare is formidable, though. I think Marzelline's better off without her.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think her vibrato is scarier ...

[Bert Coules]

I enjoyed that rather more than I did on the R3 broadcast (with the caveat that I only caught extracts from both, albeit lengthy ones). A marked range of acting styles though, with subtle work from some of the cast contrasting strongly with the approach of others. Pizarro worked particularly hard at his villainy, perhaps to counteract his bespectacled mild-mannered accountant look.

One thing has always puzzled me about this opera: When Rocco takes Leonore to her husband's cell he pleads with them to send word of his plight to "Leonore Florestan". So it's his surname, is it? And she always - and lovingly - calls him that, while to him she's "Leonore". That's an interesting relationship they've got going there.

[Darkbloom]

One thing has always puzzled me about this opera: When Rocco takes Leonore to her husband's cell he pleads with them to send word of his plight to "Leonore Florestan". So it's his surname, is it? And she always - and lovingly - calls him that, while to him she's "Leonore". That's an interesting relationship they've got going there.

Perhaps she's not allowed to ask, like Lohengrin. It certainly gives new meaning to 'O, namenlose freude'.

[Bert Coules]

And at the end they could sail off into the sunset together, pulled by a swan. A much more dramatically satisfying ending than just all that singing.