Prom 5 - 17.07.17: Sibelius, Rachmaninov and Shostakovich

[bluestateprommer]

DSCH 10 just finished; a fine, solid rendition. TS did go for the slow burn approach in the finale, at the "perky" mood-swing moment on clarinet, perhaps too much so for my taste, where I kind of like a bit more cheap thrills before the final section that slows the pace and mood just a tad, before the final celebration (which he did pace well). I tend to have reactions to TS's concerts with the BBC NOW in that "fine, solid" vein, if not necessarily a heights-scaler or depths-prober to the max. But he is clearly a fine, intelligent, and personable conductor, and he and the BBC NOW do make a good team. Presuming that the coming season is indeed his final one with the BBC NOW before he heads to the RSNO, it seems that he might be leaving them a bit soon. But as the quip goes, "better 5 years too early than 5 minutes too late". Also, full marks to the Monday night audience for not applauding between the movements of SR and DSCH. (Weekly demographics and crowds do seem to make a difference.)

For edashtav, as I mentioned to fhg in another thread, life would be boring if we all agreed with each other all the time. What's most important is that we care about, and we all take, The Proms and the music seriously. (Even some of us on the other side of the pond .)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For edashtav, as I mentioned to fhg in another thread, life would be boring if we all agreed with each other all the time. What's most important is that we care about, and we all take, The Proms and the music seriously. (Even some of us on the other side of the pond .)

I meant to reply to that comment, saying that I often find it interesting to read opinions that contrast markedly with my own - especially useful for works that I don't like, of course; frequently prompting me to revisit such repertoire. But sometimes helpful to read negative comments on works that I love - to try and see where the opinions that I find baffling are coming from, and to focus what it is that makes me respond more positively.

Of course, I more frequently decide that I was right all along - but the exercise has still been fascinating!

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry, Jayne,: I composed my piece [see above]before reading your post. I suspect that what we we heard was similar but what we were looking was diametrically opposed.

I see that DracoM thinks as I do but suggests a possible cause of our dissatisfaction.
I would add that it takes time for a visiting orchestra to adjust to the strange acoustics of the Albert Hall which, from personal experience, is different when full with an audience than when one rehearses in its empty barn.

Well Ed, with Sibelius I'm devotedly a Berglundian, latterly a Vanskan; despite enjoying other music in actively creative or recreative interpretations (much rubato and other individualisations) with Sibelius, it goes the other way: less is more. (This applies to orchestral texture too). When I got the latest remaster of the Bernstein NYPO cycle, I was aghast.... it was soon on its way back. Nor was I too keen on Rattle's recent romanticisations in Berlin.

For me, the later Sibelius is a cold, clear, voice of nature. Any human presence is passive-contemplative; barely there.
What he said of the 4th "nothing of the circus about it" seems an interpretative key to the 6th, 7th and Tapiola as well. (Not to mention those remarkable Tempest suites). So my admiration is for those who seem to play the music this way, almost a philosophical rather than an emotional statement - Vanska, Sanderling and Berglund, whose last set with the COE is the most extraordinarily self-abnegating of all.

Cast a cold eye
On Life, on Death;
Horseman, pass by!

***
As for the sound balance, on 16/48 lossless I really had no problem with it: big soundstage and orchestral presence within it, wide dynamic range, clear, very precise detail. Open, fresh textures. I preferred it to the sound of Berlin Staatskapelle. And it certainly didn't sound under-rehearsed, quite the reverse. Remember too that this partnership has been recording these Symphonies for Linn over the last few years (to, mostly, positive reviews); they know them well, together. So I think we were hearing the 7th, tonight, as they wish to present it.

[EdgeleyRob]

DSCH 10 just finished; a fine, solid rendition. TS did go for the slow burn approach in the finale, at the "perky" mood-swing moment on clarinet, perhaps too much so for my taste, where I kind of like a bit more cheap thrills before the final section that slows the pace and mood just a tad, before the final celebration (which he did pace well). I tend to have reactions to TS's concerts with the BBC NOW in that "fine, solid" vein, if not necessarily a heights-scaler or depths-prober to the max. But he is clearly a fine, intelligent, and personable conductor, and he and the BBC NOW do make a good team. Presuming that the coming season is indeed his final one with the BBC NOW before he heads to the RSNO, it seems that he might be leaving them a bit soon. But as the quip goes, "better 5 years too early than 5 minutes too late". Also, full marks to the Monday night audience for not applauding between the movements of SR and DSCH. (Weekly demographics and crowds do seem to make a difference.)

For edashtav, as I mentioned to fhg in another thread, life would be boring if we all agreed with each other all the time. What's most important is that we care about, and we all take, The Proms and the music seriously. (Even some of us on the other side of the pond .)

If you listen very closely there is a brief but thankfully short lived attempt at applause by a lone clapper after the first movement.
I thought the DSCH 10 was very ordinary,certainly no depth or height or terror.
I tuned in from the interval talk,plenty of terror in the scherzo in it's 2 piano version performed by Shostakovich and Weinberg of course,the whole thing is on you tube,what an extraordinary document

[Barbirollians]

I'm going to disagree with you, bluestateprommer, but not painfully so. Let me state my position, or prejudice, at the outset: I tuned in not feeling, in bbm's terminology, "What a great programme of marvellous masterpieces: I am going to enjoy this!" but, "Tonight's programme couples three of the better pieces by three of the 20th century's arch conservative composers. A tough ask: will orchestra, conductor and soloist overcome my reservations?"

Well, they didn't convince me in Sibelius's final completed symphonic essay. Back home in Buckingham, I have an invoice for a Christmas dinner given to the Guardians and inmates of Buckingham's workhouse. One entry records the cost of beer "for the men", the next (much lower) records "beer for the ladies".Yes, there's was "small" beer, watered down and anaemic.

I felt that the conductor's vision of the Sibelius 7th was "small beer", as if the work's title was the "Pastoral", perhaps describing the coming together or confluence of several gurgling rivulets into the great river "in C".There was a lack of convincing conflict, the music of the scherzo elements was by Mendelssohn out of Smetana. Surely, one of the streams of invention needs to threaten to divide and rule the rest? There's a symphonic argument in progress fortified by strong beer, not a supine grope towards a wet consensus? Some lovely woodwind playing, indeed, but not the "true grit" of that man's man: Sibelius.

I felt the opposite in the Rachmaninov: it was played and shaped for all, or more than, its worth, which IMHO, has to be
way with second-rate music by composers not in the Premier League. There was a real unity of vision and drive between the talented soloist and Thomas Sondergard and his orchestra. It was passionate and hot-headed. In the sweaty hothouse of the RAH in high summer, nothing less will so. No messing, but musical real ale brewed for the passionate masses of all sexes, and a reminder that Rachmaninov, who may disappoint cerebral musicians, always displays a high emotional intelligence. I also loved the cooling Tchaikovsky non-development nocturne played as an encore.

Rachmaninov a second rate composer not in the premier league ? Rather an old fashioned view nowadays surely .

[pastoralguy]

Rachmaninov a second rate composer not in the premier league ? Rather an old fashioned view nowadays surely .

[jayne lee wilson]

I meant to reply to that comment, saying that I often find it interesting to read opinions that contrast markedly with my own - especially useful for works that I don't like, of course; frequently prompting me to revisit such repertoire. But sometimes helpful to read negative comments on works that I love - to try and see where the opinions that I find baffling are coming from, and to focus what it is that makes me respond more positively.

Of course, I more frequently decide that I was right all along - but the exercise has still been fascinating!

"We talk about it for 20 minutes and then we decide that I was right" - Brian Clough.

[jayne lee wilson]

Anyway, a terrific Shostakovich 10th, faithfully relayed once again, in excellent sound via 16/48 lossless CONCERT SOUND .

Years ago, I recall a review of Haitink's RCOA Mahler 6th which said (in comparison to Solti and the Chicago Symphony) - "the drama is clear-headed rather than darkly intense..."
So it went with this BBCNOW/Søndergård DSCH 10...

Tempi were flowing from the outset; a structurally clarifying, natural ebb and flow, through the three 1st movement themes and their reverse-order recap; precise solos, transparent textures; powerful, yet never utterly crushing, dynamics; conductor and orchestra in control.
I've long been dependent on Russian Orchestras and conductors in this music - the historically-aware, individualistic intensity of a Mravinsky or a Kondrashin; the sheer sound their orchestras make; such was the discipline, attack, control and impact from Søndergård and his faithful band, I didn't miss them tonight.

Did such an approach as Søndergård's reduce the firepower of the 4-minute Stalin-terror-parody allegro? Absolutely not! Stunning discipline, dynamics and impact again - but.... was there some dynamic pulling back, from conductor, or over-control from an engineer, at the end? I felt so, and confirmed it on the 320 kbps aac iPlayer later: net effect - earlier climaxes in the movement were more powerful than the last one. A small defect, nonetheless, and - tremendous side-drumming!

Our old friend HS might have found reason to carp at the horn solos in the 3rd movement: they weren't quite flawless; but, as a mere listener, I still reckoned them as pretty fine, as the poet-composer's signature asserted its individuality. Throughout this movement, and the symphony overall, the woodwinds (flutes especially), both solo, in duet and as a group, really shone out in this reading: in such an "objective" interpretation, their very colourful, brilliant, vividly-characterised solos gave the performance an extra dimension. Then back with the whole orchestra, at the finale climax, the thundered-out, tragically-intoned, "DSCH!"....
that control remained symphonically prioritised; that discipline in containing such potentially disruptive psychodramas was, musically, retained.

The BBCNOW have a great DSCH tradition, with Mark Wigglesworth and BIS, of course; it served them well in this superb performance tonight.

[edashtav]

If you listen very closely there is a brief but thankfully short lived attempt at applause by a lone clapper after the first movement.
I thought the DSCH 10 was very ordinary,certainly no depth or height or terror.
I tuned in from the interval talk,plenty of terror in the scherzo in it's 2 piano version performed by Shostakovich and Weinberg of course,the whole thing is on you tube,what an extraordinary document

I'm 100% in agreement with you over the DSCH#10 Edgeley Rob.I hadn't realised that the historic 2 piano version is on YouTube and I shall follow that lead. Thanks very much.

[edashtav]

Anyway, a terrific Shostakovich 10th, faithfully relayed once again, in excellent sound via 16/48 lossless CONCERT SOUND .
[.... all Jayne's red meat has been excised purely in the interests of saving space! ....]

The BBCNOW have a great DSCH tradition, with Mark Wigglesworth and BIS, of course; it served them well in this superb performance tonight.

.


Sorry to cut you off in your prime, Jayne. While I seek a different ideal in DSCH performance, your cogent comments are enlightening and so well expressed. You'll see my prejudice in my positive comment on EdgeleyRob's Post. I want to write more but duty calls...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Rachmaninov a second rate composer not in the premier league ? Rather an old fashioned view nowadays surely .

Well - if you put Rachmaninoff in "the premier league", where do you put Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Stravinsky, Monteverdi, Schönberg, Dunstable, Handel, Lachenmann, Wagner, Brahms, Byrd, Ferneyhough, Bruckner, Gesualdo, Machaut, Hildegard, Barrett (just to name the most obvious)?

It might be "old-fashioned", but it's none-the-less true - and with a Premier League like that, being in the "Second Division" is no shame. (Nor, seeing that we're talking about Rachmaninoff, the Third, for that matter.)

[Hornspieler]

I have last night's Prom recorded on my cable TV Set (Channel 903 for Radio 3)
So I have set what is called a series link, which instructs my TV to record all the BBC3 Proms broadcasts which commence at 7.30pm. So, by the end of this season's Promenade Concerts, I shall have every one available to listen to at my leisure. Last night, at 9 o'clock, I listened to the Sibelius 7 and Rachmaninov 3rd Piano concerto.
No picture, of course, but quality sound, coupled with the TVs printed programe information.
PM me if you wish to know more.

Anyway, the Sibelius non-symphony was quite well handled (what more can you say about this misnamed work?) and I shall listen to DSCH No 10 this morning.

I have already listened to the two Elgar symphonies, that ghastly (but cleverly contrived) Birtwhistle piece and a nice taste of Mozart from Haitinck and the CEO.

Hornspieler

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Tonight's programme couples three of the better pieces by three of the 20th century's arch conservative composers.

Given the appreciation of Sibelius' harmonic and structural innovations acknowledged by (amongst others) Maxwell Davies, Grisey, and Saariaho, in what way is his Music (as opposed to the man himself) "arch conservative", ed?

[pastoralguy]

Well - if you put Rachmaninoff in "the premier league", where do you put Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Stravinsky, Monteverdi, Schönberg, Dunstable, Handel, Lachenmann, Wagner, Brahms, Byrd, Ferneyhough, Bruckner, Gesualdo, Machaut, Hildegard, Barrett (just to name the most obvious)?

It might be "old-fashioned", but it's none-the-less true - and with a Premier League like that, being in the "Second Division" is no shame. (Nor, seeing that we're talking about Rachmaninoff, the Third, for that matter.)

And not forgetting George Lloyd...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And not forgetting George Lloyd...

I try my best.