Prom 4 - 16.07.17: Daniel Barenboim and Staatskapelle Berlin

[zola]

Daniel Barenboim interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.

[Talking about Prom audiences] ". . . It's not the public that goes to the Festival Hall during the winter. And I have always asked myself what do these people, the five thousand that come daily to the Proms and are so - er - listen so attentively and are so enthusiastic – what do they do for music for the rest of the year? I have never found out the answer".

I've wondered the same about this forum where every Proms concert is picked over in the minutest detail, whereas radio 3's concert broadcasts during the rest of the year pass virtually unremarked e.g. Rattle's Haydn pasticchio last Wednesday from the Barbican. Is it that many ( most ? ) of the broadcasts during the rest of the year are recorded and broadcast "as live" rather than live ? ( not the case with the Rattle )

[french frank]

To see a German orchestra really digging in to this wonderful music brought tears to the eyes. Yes music, and Elgar, is international. I always say "thank you Sir Edward" at the completion of an Elgar performance (sotto voce if I am actually taking part in it of course - some people think that I am mad enough as it is)

The disadvantage to political interventions (as elsewhere) is that they tend to divert attention from the musical performance. Hence I quote a musical comment …

[peterthekeys]

You're entitled to your opinion, but plenty of musicians would disagree with you.

Surely there's a consideration beyond opinions (including those of conductors and performers.) It's possible - admittedly not always the case, by any means - that when a composer is writing a multi-movement work, he or she intends the silence between two movements to be part of the work - a carrying-over of the key, material or mood of the previous movement to a continuation or contrast in the next. Obviously, applause at that point ruins the effect.

The other aspect is that if there is inter-movement applause, the performers feel a duty to acknowledge it - and this obviously has the potential to disrupt their concentration and require a "reset" before the beginning of the next movement.

(Imagine a performance of Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony in which there was applause after the end of the scherzo (there's no break in the score, but the audience don't know that.) The poor organist, heart in mouth, sitting at the console with all the stops pulled out, hands and feet poised to sound that colossal C major chord (must be the ultimate experience in an organist's career) suddenly has to turn round and acknowledge a smattering of half-hearted applause. Not an experience which I'd relish.)

[makropulos]

Surely there's a consideration beyond opinions (including those of conductors and performers.) It's possible - admittedly not always the case, by any means - that when a composer is writing a multi-movement work, he or she intends the silence between two movements to be part of the work - a carrying-over of the key, material or mood of the previous movement to a continuation or contrast in the next. Obviously, applause at that point ruins the effect.

The other aspect is that if there is inter-movement applause, the performers feel a duty to acknowledge it - and this obviously has the potential to disrupt their concentration and require a "reset" before the beginning of the next movement.

(Imagine a performance of Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony in which there was applause after the end of the scherzo (there's no break in the score, but the audience don't know that.) The poor organist, heart in mouth, sitting at the console with all the stops pulled out, hands and feet poised to sound that colossal C major chord (must be the ultimate experience in an organist's career) suddenly has to turn round and acknowledge a smattering of half-hearted applause. Not an experience which I'd relish.)

Fair point - and if a musician makes a request that there should not be applause in a particular part of a work or programme, I have never been to a concert where that request has not been respected. Regarding written in silences, Mahler was explicit about not wanting applause in between the songs of the Kindertotenlieder, and it has been suggested that Mendelssohn linked the movements of the Violin Concerto to prevent applause - apparently he came to dislike it as he grew older. As for interrupting in the middle of a piece, this certainly happens - and possibly it may even have happened in Saint-Saëns 3. And there are a great many interruptions for applause in opera houses during pretty much any performance of Boheme, Rigoletto and numerous others. Only in Wagner does audience pomposity sometimes win the day - usually by fanatical shushing that is far more intrusive than spontaneous applause. I'm sure you know the story of the Pie Jesu from the Fauré Requiem being greeted so enthusiastically at the 1900 premiere of the full orchestra version that it was encored before the performance could continue.

[edashtav]

HARRISON BIRTWISTLE - DEEP TIME

I'm a great enthusiast for Harry's music and have followed his progress since hearing his early piece dedicated to Sandy Goehr "Refrains and Choruses". I suppose that was in the mid sixties. He was young and very contemporary in British classical music terms. However, when he came on stage to acknowledge the applause, his dress was not "trendy" for he sported a Teddy Boy's bootlace tie c. 1955. Was he behind the times ,or ahead of them with the avant-garde? Both, I guess, Birtwistle has remained fascinated by time, one of the factors that distinguishes music from another fascination of Harry's -.Art. Deep Time is part 3 of a Trilogy that opened decades ago with The Triumph of Time, and continued 15 years later with Earth Dances, a work that sounds so well in the vast cavernous space that is the RAH. From geological blocks through linear strata to a synthesis or a "mash-up" as a cataclysmic event smashes the imperceptible progress of geological "deep time" and young strata suddenly are plunged below or mixed with ancient rocks, seemingly as old as Father Time. This was the third performance by the Berlin orchestra of Harry's new piece, co-commissioned by the orchestra and the BBC Proms. The piece lasts over twenty minutes and has many of the composer's familiar features: layers of music ,i.e. strata that co-exist but have their own material, ostinatib and speeds, blocks of sound as proud as the standing stones of Stonehenge, and melody full of keening melancholy. On the latter aspect, in last night performance some of the melodic material was written for a soprano saxophone, and I noted a kinship with the music of Mark-Anthony Turnage. Whether the piece "works" will be determined by time and further performances. Last night's was well-drilled, confident and secure but lacked a little of the freedom that comes when a piece is familiar and in repertoire. My dream is to hear the three parts of the triptych played on one evening preferably separated by intervals for I suspect that Harrison's style has developed in subtle ways over the decades of gestation.
(With apologies to zucchini for my unusual brevity, lack of comment on the Elgar, and complete ignorance of the concert's European dimension. My omissions were caused by "Events, Dear Boy" i.e. The unexpected life of a carer.)

[peterthekeys]

To see a German orchestra really digging in to this wonderful music brought tears to the eyes. Yes music, and Elgar, is international.

Worth remembering that the Germans "got" Elgar's music and praised it highly, whilst British musicians and audiences were still struggling to make sense of it.

as a self-confessed remainer who was appalled (and still is) by the referendum result

You and me both. Maybe it'll actually not happen (I suspect that it's on the cards.)

[Stanfordian]

HARRISON BIRTWISTLE - DEEP TIME

I'm a great enthusiast for Harry's music and have followed his progress since hearing his early piece dedicated to Sandy Goehr "Refrains and Choruses". I suppose that was in the mid sixties. He was young and very contemporary in British classical music terms. However, when he came on stage to acknowledge the applause, his dress was not "trendy" for he sported a Teddy Boy's bootlace tie c. 1955. Was he behind the times ,or ahead of them with the avant-garde? Both, I guess, Birtwistle has remained fascinated by time, one of the factors that distinguishes music from another fascination of Harry's -.Art. Deep Time is part 3 of a Trilogy that opened decades ago with The Triumph of Time, and continued 15 years later with Earth Dances, a work that sounds so well in the vast cavernous space that is the RAH. From geological blocks through linear strata to a synthesis or a "mash-up" as a cataclysmic event smashes the imperceptible progress of geological "deep time" and young strata suddenly are plunged below or mixed with ancient rocks, seemingly as old as Father Time. This was the third performance by the Berlin orchestra of Harry's new piece, co-commissioned by the orchestra and the BBC Proms. The piece lasts over twenty minutes and has many of the composer's familiar features: layers of music ,i.e. strata that co-exist but have their own material, ostinatib and speeds, blocks of sound as proud as the standing stones of Stonehenge, and melody full of keening melancholy. On the latter aspect, in last night performance some of the melodic material was written for a soprano saxophone, and I noted a kinship with the music of Mark-Anthony Turnage. Whether the piece "works" will be determined by time and further performances. Last night's was well-drilled, confident and secure but lacked a little of the freedom that comes when a piece is familiar and in repertoire. My dream is to hear the three parts of the triptych played on one evening preferably separated by intervals for I suspect that Harrison's style has developed in subtle ways over the decades of gestation.
(With apologies to zucchini for my unusual brevity, lack of comment on the Elgar, and complete ignorance of the concert's European dimension. My omissions were caused by "Events, Dear Boy" i.e. The unexpected life of a carer.)

It's good to be talking about Birtwistle's music and not Brexit. I thought Birtwistle's new work was awe-inspiring and it certainly made a positive impact on me.

[Stunsworth]

My reaction was that it was extremely rude and I was surprised that the soloist appeared completely unphased by it all

Every time I've seen a musician asked if applause between movements bothers them the answer has been no.

[peterthekeys]

I'm sure you know the story of the Pie Jesu from the Fauré Requiem being greeted so enthusiastically at the 1900 premiere of the full orchestra version that it was encored before the performance could continue.

I have to admit that I didn't - so thanks for that: I'll look it up. Personally, if I'd been there, I don't think I'd have had a problem with that: if there is a genuinely overwhelming response from an audience to something in a work (particularly at a premiere), then it effectively becomes part of the performance. The problem with the inter-movement applause at the Proms is that - usually - it doesn't sound like a response to the music: it just comes across as an irksome anti-convention.

[pastoralguy]

I seem to remember that in the post 9/11 Concert, Leonard Slatkin requested there be no applause after Barber's 'Adagio'. However, there was still a claque who insisted on expressing their 'enjoyment' at the music.

[Ferretfancy]

I seem to remember that in the post 9/11 Concert, Leonard Slatkin requested there be no applause after Barber's 'Adagio'. However, there was still a claque who insisted on expressing their 'enjoyment' at the music.

Igor Levit seemed to thoroughly enjoy himself playing the Beethoven on the first night, and from where I was standing he didn't seem to mind the applause after the first movement. I normally hate inter movement applause, but this time it was really full and enthusiastic. What is really irritating is that curious truncated applause which starts tentatively before petering out.

I wish there was a stupidity filter ( maybe as an app.???) I could have cheerfully throttled the pair having a chat near me during the slow movement.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Every time I've seen a musician asked if applause between movements bothers them the answer has been no.

Some do; some don't. The body language of performers does sometimes indicate a touch of annoyance.

I come back to my admiration of Manchester audiences - perhaps a throwback to Barbirolli's intimidation of later arrivals at concerts.
At the other end of the scale, we have the Leeds Grand Theatre audiences chatting during the overture.

At the premiere of Tony Biggin's The Gates of Greenham (RFH - 1985), a group of people, who were clearly in agreement with the lyrics, started applauding over the music.

Mind, you, my dad started talking in the middle of Die Zauberflote Overture, thinking it had finished.

[vinteuil]

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"Hell is other people... "


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("L'enfer, c'est les autres" )

Huis-clos [1944]


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[marvin]

I can only think that some people (and it is usually only very few) have so little idea about what is happening that they actually do think the work has finished when it stops and clap accordingly. They must surely be somewhat taken aback when it then carries on. I sometimes wonder what goes through their head when they notice that no one else around them is applauding.

We were standing in the arena on Saturday and someone next to us was reading a book during the Elgar 1.

Well you were probably at a different concert then. The Proms played the Elgar 2!

[vinteuil]

We were standing in the arena on Saturday and someone next to us was reading a book during the Elgar 1.

.

Well you were probably at a different concert then. The Proms played the Elgar 2!

the Proms did Elgar 1 on Saturday, and Elgar 2 on Sunday.