Prom 4 - 16.07.17: Daniel Barenboim and Staatskapelle Berlin

[johnn10]

I think we have to resign ourselves to the fact that the Proms now is probably the only major concert sequence where inter-movement applause has now become almost a tradition. I hate it, but I think for some it is a sort of conscious revolt against the established order.

Unless and until the BBC or individual ensembles request otherwise in programmes, on billboards round the RAH, I think it is here to stay. What surprises me is that it does NOT happen - or seem to - in any other live concert relay the Beeb does. I wonder why not? Different audience maybe?

I agree that IF it is generally felt that this is practice which ought to be discouraged then it is best to do something about it now. Otherwise it will just become the norm and then there is no point in challenging it. As is the case for example with the deeply entrenched but deeply annoying habit of audiences at the Met in New York of applauding before the end of the music no matter how beautiful -for example, the last ten seconds of the first act of Rosenkavalier.

[Gary Freer]

Enjoyed the performance but could have done without the political lecture. Let the music do the talking, please.

[Stunsworth]

When did applause between movements stop?

[jayne lee wilson]

Detailed (and very amusing) historical considerations from Alex Ross here....

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/02/applause_a_rest.html

You do hear interstitial applause on mid-20th Century Historical performances (the more recent fashion is to edit out from live) - the Horowitz/Toscanini Brahms B Flat from 10/1948 is so overwhelming the crowd leap in before the end of the first movement, again between 2nd and 3rd, and can scarcely wait to roar their approval at the end...(I think I heard a bravo in there too, or perhaps on another Toscanini effort).
It's surely a well-established Classical tradition.

For whatever reason, it doesn't bother me much, unless it seems indiscriminate - grotesquely inapt to the musical moment. Cheering the end of the DSCH 10 1st movement would tend to reduce the effect of the rip-roaring stormy music about to ensue (Listen up to Prom 5...), similarly between the Schumann 2nd adagio and finale...and so on. (The Tchaikovsky 6th is one of the most fascinating either/or cases though... )

...it's all contextual, really...

[edashtav]

Excellent ....still laughing ...

so am I.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

If it had gone blank during T Service's incessant prattling I doubt if anyone would have complained ... :)

He really does like the sound of his own voice, particularly when talking over the music.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When did applause between movements stop?

When people realised it was annoying, selfish, boorish and hedonistic.

[Pianorak]

Daniel Barenboim interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.

[Talking about Prom audiences] ". . . It's not the public that goes to the Festival Hall during the winter. And I have always asked myself what do these people, the five thousand that come daily to the Proms and are so - er - listen so attentively and are so enthusiastic – what do they do for music for the rest of the year? I have never found out the answer".

Well, it's obvious, they buy and discuss CDs at length on this Forum – and, time permitting, listen to them as well.

[teamsaint]

Daniel Barenboim interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.

[Talking about Prom audiences] ". . . It's not the public that goes to the Festival Hall during the winter. And I have always asked myself what do these people, the five thousand that come daily to the Proms and are so - er - listen so attentively and are so enthusiastic – what do they do for music for the rest of the year? I have never found out the answer".

Well, it's obvious, they buy and discuss CDs at length on this Forum – and, time permitting, listen to them as well.

This easily- lumped- together group probably spend the winter saving up the £60+ a night for stalls tickets, or building up their flexitime so that they can queue half the summer, or visiting the RFH incognito.............. or whatever.

I know I do......

[cloughie]

Daniel Barenboim interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.

[Talking about Prom audiences] ". . . It's not the public that goes to the Festival Hall during the winter. And I have always asked myself what do these people, the five thousand that come daily to the Proms and are so - er - listen so attentively and are so enthusiastic – what do they do for music for the rest of the year? I have never found out the answer".

Well, it's obvious, they buy and discuss CDs at length on this Forum – and, time permitting, listen to them as well.

I think DB was referring to those who were not there for most of the year but spend most of their time perfecting clapping between movements, ready for the season.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think DB was referring to those who were not there for most of the year but spend most of their time perfecting clapping between movements, ready for the season.

The perceived attentiveness is actually listening for any silences, so they know when to clap.

[Barbirollians]

Tom Service thinks clapping between movements is great he was going on about how right it was tonight on BBC4 .

A good interviewer and writer but a terrible presenter .

[Nick Armstrong]

Maybe I've had too much whisky but give it a f*****g rest, Tom.

No - stone-cold sober, that was exactly my opinion when he finished his breathless intro prattle about 0.005 seconds before the first note of the Elgar

[makropulos]

When people realised it was annoying, selfish, boorish and hedonistic.

You're entitled to your opinion, but plenty of musicians would disagree with you. In 1959, Pierre Monteux said: 'I have one big complaint about audiences in all countries, and that is their artificial restraint from applause between movements of a concerto or symphony'. Erich Leinsdorf said much the same thing. The famous pre-war Bruno Walter recording of Mahler 9 had the applause between movements edited out (according to Fred Gaisberg), and Elgar provides a very choice example: according to The Times, at the premiere of the First Symphony, 'the outburst at the end of the Adagio represented a heartfelt response … The composer was called to the platform before the finale in order to acknowledge the applause’ (Times, 4 December 1908). A century later, Emanuel Ax wrote: 'I really hope we can go back to the feeling that applause should be an emotional response to the music, rather than a regulated social duty. I am always a little taken aback when I hear the first movement of a concerto which is supposed to be full of excitement, passion, and virtuoso display (like the Brahms or Beethoven Concertos), and then hear a rustling of clothing, punctuated by a few coughs; the sheer force of the music calls for a wild audience reaction. … Most composers trust their listeners to respond at the right time, and if we feel like expressing approval, we should be allowed to, anytime!'

Elgar, Walter, Monteux, Leinsdorf and Ax (to name but a few), are not musicians I would describe as 'annoying, selfish, boorish and hedonistic'.

Incidentally, Olin Downes (New York Times, 21 August 1938), deplored the ‘ridiculous banning and absence of applause between the movements of symphonies’, describing it as ‘snobbism in excelsis’. I have to say I agree with him - if an audience at a live event - any live event - wants to applaud, then it's hard to see why they shouldn't. If you insist on silence between movements, listen to a recording.

[jayne lee wilson]

Absolutely Makropoulos... thanks for writing this, and vide #49 for Alex Ross, a 1948 Studio 8H audience, my own and Mozart's feelings (among many others...)

To Be or not To Be.....
OK - so you're at a performance of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony. At the end of the allegro molto vivace, you're stunned. Silent. You know what's coming. Some members of the audience cheer and applaud, quite loudly. Then, when the adagio lamentoso begins, they fall silent. As does the whole hall.

How do you, who knew the consequence to the 3rd movement's faux-triumph, react?