Prom 4 - 16.07.17: Daniel Barenboim and Staatskapelle Berlin

[vibratoforever]

I think the key consideration is the response to something exceptional as opposed to routine.

When Barbirolli conducted this work in Boston there was applause after the Rondo, and justifiably after what was heard.

But after every movement??

[vibratoforever]

Enjoyed the performance but could have done without the political lecture. Let the music do the talking, please.

What are you afraid of?

You will surely be aware that Barenboim is not just a beater of time?

His work towards reconciliation and understanding in the Middle East has been evident at the Proms for many years.

The OFF switch is your option if you cannot bear to hear a contrary opinion to your own.

[CallMePaul]

I think we have to resign ourselves to the fact that the Proms now is probably the only major concert sequence where inter-movement applause has now become almost a tradition. I hate it, but I think for some it is a sort of conscious revolt against the established order.

Unless and until the BBC or individual ensembles request otherwise in programmes, on billboards round the RAH, I think it is here to stay. What surprises me is that it does NOT happen - or seem to - in any other live concert relay the Beeb does. I wonder why not? Different audience maybe?

I first became aware of it when Lang Lang played Tchaik 1 a few years ago on the first night. My reaction was that it was extremely rude and I was surprised that the soloist appeared completely unphased by it all. I have suggested that a "polite notice" be placed in the programmes (and if necessary at entrances to the hall) asking the audience not to applaud until the conductor turns to face the audience and/or the soloist puts down his/her instrument or moves away frtom the keyboard. Most of the proms are not pop concerts and the audience should not treat them as such!

By the way, has there ever (in recent times) been booing at a prom or other major concert performance?

[gurnemanz]

I can only think that some people (and it is usually only very few) have so little idea about what is happening that they actually do think the work has finished when it stops and clap accordingly. They must surely be somewhat taken aback when it then carries on. I sometimes wonder what goes through their head when they notice that no one else around them is applauding.

We were standing in the arena on Saturday and someone next to us was reading a book during the Elgar 1.

[Alain Maréchal]

OK - so you're at a performance of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony. At the end of the allegro molto vivace, you're stunned. Silent. You know what's coming. Some members of the audience cheer and applaud, quite loudly. Then, when the adagio lamentoso begins, they fall silent. As does the whole hall.

How do you, who knew the consequence to the 3rd movement's faux-triumph, react?

I suppose Tchaikovsky intended that effect; the audience will have known that there was to be another movement, probably applauded after the third movement, and were then stunned by the opening of the finale.

When I was young, a long time ago, applause after the first movement of a concerto (usually the longest by far) was the norm. It was an acknowledgement of the efforts of the soloist. There are many symphonies where applause after the first movement must be expected (could any of you sit still calmly after the first movement of Walton's first symphony, or Mahler's third?), but there are many slow movements where by the end the composer has deliberately calmed down the music from the emotional heights to permit the audience to control themselves emotionally. I think Elgar 2 is such a one.

[french frank]

This easily- lumped- together group

Which makes sense about the group which attends many Proms concerts during each season, and which develops a group 'character'. Once the season is over, they are no longer a group but disperse and are diluted among other concert audiences.

My view is that there is no 'right' or 'wrong', snobbishness or unbridled enthusiasm. People either prefer silence until a piece of music has finished or they prefer to applaud at points where they feel moved to do so (but only, of course, at appropriate moments when they feel moved to do so i.e. between movements: all the arguments which favour this do not extend to applauding while the music is still playing as, for instance, at jazz concerts).

Reconciling the two views, as far as the Proms are concerned seems impossible. As DracoM implies, if you're done down in the process, just put up with it: it's the Proms, the Proms that cost £5 a throw and where people queue for tickets overnight, where they shout 'Heave-ho' when the piano is shifted about, and bob up and down to Tom Bowling on the last night. So I gather.

But arguments for one over the other are just people justifying their own preference. You are not 'right'.

But remaining silent until the entire piece has ended is a more consistent argument, otherwise you do accept applause during the music.

[Bryn]

While not a participant in this HIAP*, I see/hear nothing 'wrong' with it. I concur with most of frenchie's contribution, though not the small print, that is just an expression of her approach to what the second paragraph discusses.

[*Historically Informed Audience Practice.]

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was there for the celebrated / notorious booing of Leif Segerstram's Bruckner 8 a couple of years back at the Barbican. I thought the performance magnificent (along with quite a few in the forum listening on Radio 3) the man in front hated it . It was very long.
As a few have pointed out silence between movements is a relatively new 'norm ' in performance history . Applause indeed ovations leading to encores of movements was relatively common along with insertion of unrelated musical material e.g the bizarre premiere of Beethoven's Violin Concerto. Some sociologists have observed how the rules of classical concerts - formal dress ( though that's going) silence etc are a way of one group establishing a code that subtly excludes another - we are part of the club and you are not. Many in the audience at the proms are not part of the RFH/ROH/Wigmore Hall club - and I think that's a good thing. To put it simply they are not boorish but unaware of the rules - the rules that those 'in the club ' ( perhaps unconsciously and usually with an appeal to a unwritten tradition ) have constructed . Finally if you want to hear a silent audience try listening to Otello at ROH surrounded as I was by largely German Kaufman fans - not one cough , whisper or premature outbreak of applause - however at the curtain call more mobile screens filming than I have ever seen outside a rock concert.

[Alain Maréchal]

all the arguments which favour this do not extend to applauding while the music is still playing as, for instance, at jazz concerts).

I have wondered if on some occasion the audience would applaud when the tune they recognise appears in Rachmaninov's second concerto.

[Bryn]

On another thread I posted a link to a recording of a broadcast concert in which Frank Zappa introduced works by Edgar Varèse. The audience was predominantly a standard Zappa one. He adjures them to be quiet and warns then that they will incur his wrath is they make a noise during the performances.

Here a preferred link: http://www.wqxr.org/story/archives-f...arese-concert/

Worth reading some of the 6 comments too.

[Once Was 4]

What are you afraid of?

You will surely be aware that Barenboim is not just a beater of time?

His work towards reconciliation and understanding in the Middle East has been evident at the Proms for many years.

The OFF switch is your option if you cannot bear to hear a contrary opinion to your own.

To see a German orchestra really digging in to this wonderful music brought tears to the eyes. Yes music, and Elgar, is international. I always say "thank you Sir Edward" at the completion of an Elgar performance (sotto voce if I am actually taking part in it of course - some people think that I am mad enough as it is)

But I agree about the political lecture: as a self-confessed remainer who was appalled (and still is) by the referendum result I have to admit that I know many Brexiteers who are not racists, xenophobes, illiterates or cultural savages. And they are far more aware of financial realities than I am - not to mention the newly discovered saint that many people in the arts world seem to regard as our saviour (and some of us suspect that he is a closet Brexiteer anyway!)

Sorry - just my opinion! I do respect those of others in a way that some people, however distinguished they may be as musicians, do not appear to do.

[Alain Maréchal]

Did Barenboim make any overt reference to Brexit, or was he appealing for conciliation in a wider context? Is it possible that in the present climate over there anything is assumed to be Brexit-related? DB could hardly be unaware of what happened in Paris 75 years ago yesterday.

[Bryn]

Did Barenboim make any overt reference to Brexit, or was he appealing for conciliation in a wider context? Is it possible that in the present climate over there anything is assumed to be Brexit-related? DB could hardly be unaware of what happened in Paris 75 years ago yesterday.

He was careful to assert that he was not making a specific point re. the matter in question. However the context made it crystal clear where he stood. Good for him! Looking forward to more Levit and Barenboim type interjections this season.

[makropulos]

He was careful to assert that he was not making a specific point re. the matter in question. However the context made it crystal clear where he stood. Good for him! Looking forward to more Levit and Barenboim type interjections this season.

Yes. Re DB, after saying how happy he had been living in the UK, he went on to say that he was not going to refer specifically to the British situation.

[gurnemanz]

Did Barenboim make any overt reference to Brexit, or was he appealing for conciliation in a wider context? Is it possible that in the present climate over there anything is assumed to be Brexit-related? DB could hardly be unaware of what happened in Paris 75 years ago yesterday.

I was interested to read about some French people expressing their gratitude to GB and USA for showing them the way not to go and thus allowing their country to avoid giving a big vote to narrow nationalism.

Barenboim is obviously very fond of Britain (as am I) and like many of us is deeply saddened about what is happening to the country post-referendum. He must have felt very strongly to make that speech and choose that encore, which we watched on TV last night and witnessed in the Hall on Saturday. My wife grew up in East Germany and we understand only too well the imperative of trying to unite Europeans, not divide them. He wanted to make the point that music is a marvellous language-free expression of our shared culture. As, it seems, did Igor Levit with his choice of encore.