Proms 2017

[PhilipT]

That letter has brought out the usual moaners who claim that Promming is somehow elitist and full of arcane rules that the general public doesn't understand. I wish they would stop, because it isn't true and only puts people off from going, if they think it's like joining the Freemasons. The only people who have a bad experience are those who push in the queue, or in the arena. All you need is a basic respect for other people, is that so hard?

Earlier this season I tried my best to explain the queuing system to someone outside the Hall and was asked why it needed a degree in the subject. I didn't have an answer. As for having a basic respect for other people, it is clear that some people do find it hard. Before Mahler 2 someone in the CBSO chorus, there for the Gurrelieder rehearsal that day, asked me to get an Arena Day queue raffle ticket from the Steward for a friend of hers (she had already got one for herself, which is fair enough, because being inside the Hall at a rehearsal must surely count as time spent queuing). I made an excuse and declined.

IMHO there are a couple of things going badly wrong in society at large. One is this incessant harping on about people having "rights" without concomitant "duties". Another - and I once had an argument with a member of the Hall staff on this one - is the idea that "being rude" means being rude verbally, thereby implying that people who cause offence by their actions do not merit being spoken to about them.

[Darkbloom]

Earlier this season I tried my best to explain the queuing system to someone outside the Hall and was asked why it needed a degree in the subject. I didn't have an answer. As for having a basic respect for other people, it is clear that some people do find it hard. Before Mahler 2 someone in the CBSO chorus, there for the Gurrelieder rehearsal that day, asked me to get an Arena Day queue raffle ticket from the Steward for a friend of hers (she had already got one for herself, which is fair enough, because being inside the Hall at a rehearsal must surely count as time spent queuing). I made an excuse and declined.

IMHO there are a couple of things going badly wrong in society at large. One is this incessant harping on about people having "rights" without concomitant "duties". Another - and I once had an argument with a member of the Hall staff on this one - is the idea that "being rude" means being rude verbally, thereby implying that people who cause offence by their actions do not merit being spoken to about them.

People who find themselves at the back of the Arena and then try to force their way to the front should be kicked out. If that isn't rude behaviour I don't know what is. I long for the days of the authoritative steward who could sort things out and stop any nonsense.

All of these little innovations the RAH seem hell bent on bringing in are likely to confuse people even further. Raffle tickets only used to be brought out for the very popular concerts, and if you arrived late you could usually get in the Gallery. I seem to remember the stewards patrolling the lines a lot more in the old days too, and problems were quickly nipped in the bud. Expecting people to organise themselves, more or less, can only lead to problems but I guess it saves them money.

Whenever I hear people complain about a bad experience at the Proms I think it's almost always caused by their own selfish behaviour.

[alywin]

All of these little innovations the RAH seem hell bent on bringing in are likely to confuse people even further. Raffle tickets only used to be brought out for the very popular concerts, and if you arrived late you could usually get in the Gallery. I seem to remember the stewards patrolling the lines a lot more in the old days too, and problems were quickly nipped in the bud. Expecting people to organise themselves, more or less, can only lead to problems but I guess it saves them money.

Yes, well, I guess we can all imagine why the raffle tickets have had to be out in full force this year :(
But it must be at least 15 years ago since I complained to a senior steward about people queue-jumping a very popular concert and was told that if I didn't like it I knew what I could do about it. And I'm pretty certain that wasn't the concert where other people were pushing in well ahead of me and I ended up at Gallery ticket no. 297, which meant that only another 3 people behind me were guaranteed entry, so people behind them lost out to the queue-jumpers.

[PhilipT]

Yes, well, I guess we can all imagine why the raffle tickets have had to be out in full force this year :(

I don't think that has changed. From 1993 onwards the RAH have issued raffle tickets whenever there's another Proms event, such as a pre-Prom talk or a second Prom. In recent years the number of other events has grown - there's always a talk, so they always issue tickets.

[duncan]

I don't think that has changed.

This has fundamentally changed this year. As you say, previously a limited number (200?) of raffle tickets were issued to enable early arrivers to attend talks or seek refreshment. You were expected to be present in the queue for a good proportion of your time (a slippery concept!) after receiving your ticket. Regulars will recall the arena queue extended far down Prince Consort Road for popular concerts. Post-London Bridge and Manchester Arena, this must have been regarded as soft terrorist target.

New this year the immediate area around the Albert Hall, including the step, is protected by concrete security barriers and all queues are arranged within this cordon. My impression is there has been a strategic decision to minimise the time and numbers in the queues to make this area easier to manage and to minimise vulnerability. This year, raffle tickets are available to anyone at any time and we are encouraged not to loiter but to return at 6.15pm when the queue will be formed. Selling arena tickets online, in advance, is surely part of this strategy and the Guardian writer seems to have missed this point.

In times long past, the Proms queue was an important part of my summer social scene, and I still attend intermittently. I know of many friendships, relationships, and marriages formed (and unformed!) there. I'm sad to see it's demise.

[PhilipT]

This has fundamentally changed this year. As you say, previously a limited number (200?) of raffle tickets were issued to enable early arrivers to attend talks or seek refreshment. You were expected to be present in the queue for a good proportion of your time (a slippery concept!) after receiving your ticket. Regulars will recall the arena queue extended far down Prince Consort Road for popular concerts. Post-London Bridge and Manchester Arena, this must have been regarded as soft terrorist target.

New this year the immediate area around the Albert Hall, including the step, is protected by concrete security barriers and all queues are arranged within this cordon. My impression is there has been a strategic decision to minimise the time and numbers in the queues to make this area easier to manage and to minimise vulnerability. This year, raffle tickets are available to anyone at any time and we are encouraged not to loiter but to return at 6.15pm when the queue will be formed. Selling arena tickets online, in advance, is surely part of this strategy and the Guardian writer seems to have missed this point.

In times long past, the Proms queue was an important part of my summer social scene, and I still attend intermittently. I know of many friendships, relationships, and marriages formed (and unformed!) there. I'm sad to see it's demise.

I stand by what I said: the issuing of the raffle tickets has not changed this year. There was never a limit on the number issued; it was quite normal to collect a raffle ticket at the Door on entry to the first Prom of the day. They were always available "to anyone at any time" once the Stewards had started issuing them, whenever in the day that was. Yes, there's a lot more security in place now, and where the queues are expected to line up has changed, so that they are all within the cordon, but the issuing of the raffle tickets has not. Like you, I miss the demise of the social side - I've been to four weddings of couples who met at the Proms. But again, the issuing of the raffle tickets has not changed.

I do agree with you that the Guardian writer has missed the point, and I said as much in my post #284 above.

[vinteuil]

.


... the more I read about Proms arcana on this thread the more persuaded I am that this is not the kind of music event for me. Quite enough to put me off from concert attendance if I have to firstly understand and secondly go thro' all this rigmarole before being able to sit and enjoy the music... What? You have to stand??

Tho' I find I have been invited to an obscenely expensive stalls seat for the VPO on 8 September...


.

[bluestateprommer]

I stand by what I said: the issuing of the raffle tickets has not changed this year. There was never a limit on the number issued; it was quite normal to collect a raffle ticket at the Door on entry to the first Prom of the day. They were always available "to anyone at any time" once the Stewards had started issuing them, whenever in the day that was. Yes, there's a lot more security in place now, and where the queues are expected to line up has changed, so that they are all within the cordon, but the issuing of the raffle tickets has not. Like you, I miss the demise of the social side - I've been to four weddings of couples who met at the Proms. But again, the issuing of the raffle tickets has not changed.

I do agree with you that the Guardian writer has missed the point, and I said as much in my post #284 above.

FWIW, there is a rebuttal letter from Lee McLernon in The Guardian to the first letter from Adrian Greeman. I'll risk fair use by quoting LM's reply in full:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/aug/31/we-should-all-applaud-the-pre-booked-proms

"As a long-standing Promenader (pun intended), I must take issue with the points raised by Adrian Greeman (Letters, 30 August). The ability to pre-book a ticket for the unreserved standing areas at the BBC Proms on the day of the concert, introduced last year, has had minimal impact on the ability of those queuing for a ticket to get in.

The number of such tickets is strictly limited for each concert, leaving plenty for those queuing (it is only on a handful of occasions each season that some of those queuing have to be turned away). The new ticketing system helps the diversity of those attending, as those from outside London or those who are working can experience a popular Prom from the arena or the gallery if they are not able to queue or do not wish to risk travelling if they’re not guaranteed to get in. In any event, the idea of pre-purchased tickets for the unreserved areas is not new; season tickets have been available for much longer than I can remember.

The Proms remain egalitarian and the best value for money around. I paid £4 to attend my first Prom 20 years ago and there have been two price rises, to £5 in 2005 and to £6 in 2016. That’s pretty good in my book when you compare it with a cinema ticket in London or a Premier League football match. Long may the BBC Proms flourish and attract new audiences.

Lee McLernon
London"

[maestro267]

After several years of non-enjoyment, of going through the motions with it all, this season is where I've finally decided the Proms aren't for me anymore. It's where I've realised that Other People, in the main, tend to suck the joy out of my own personal experience of music. Everything that comes with the Proms, the gushing presenters (both on radio and TV) who don't allow us to form our own opinions of the performance we've just heard. The audiences who have me reaching for the volume to turn it right down between movements so as to maintain the continuity of the piece. Even just hearing (give or take, obviously) the same old batch of composers year in, year out. Many evenings, the Proms didn't even enter my mind as something I could listen to. I've found something I'd rather be listening to or watching or whatever.

The Proms has been so obsessed with trying to gain new audiences that it is in danger of losing the audiences it has already got.

[Nick Armstrong]

After several years of non-enjoyment, of going through the motions with it all, this season is where I've finally decided the Proms aren't for me anymore. It's where I've realised that Other People, in the main, tend to suck the joy out of my own personal experience of music. Everything that comes with the Proms, the gushing presenters (both on radio and TV) who don't allow us to form our own opinions of the performance we've just heard. The audiences who have me reaching for the volume to turn it right down between movements so as to maintain the continuity of the piece. Even just hearing (give or take, obviously) the same old batch of composers year in, year out. Many evenings, the Proms didn't even enter my mind as something I could listen to. I've found something I'd rather be listening to or watching or whatever.

The Proms has been so obsessed with trying to gain new audiences that it is in danger of losing the audiences it has already got.

This pretty much sums up my feeling too. I went to two Proms, but the trips were triggered by wanting to give visiting young French relatives the experience. But for that, I probably wouldn't have gone.

However, I shall be keeping my audio and video copies of that magnificent Rachmaninov 2 from the BBCSSO under Daussgard; and the mercifully presenter-free TV broadcast of the András Schiff Bach recital - the two musical highlights of the season.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I thought the Season peaked early on - the Barenboim pair was wonderful, and with Birtwistle's Deep Time we were given a great work of astonishingly intense power; Khovanshchina, Damnation of Faust, and many others. The delights became fewer and farther between for me thereafter - and the better concerts came from the less well-known names and ensembles in the past couple of weeks. Some lousy singing, too.

BUT - the sense of a coherent Season, as opposed to simply a series of (often impressive) concerts, I felt was absent. Looking through the LSO programme for next year (starting next week) I couldn't help feeling that there was the same sort of hotch-potch programming being offered as at the self-proclaimed "World's Greatest Music Festival"*. If The Proms become an ordinary concert series compressed into an eight-week run, I feel that it has lost its unique character.

* - except, of course, there's a Stockhausen evening at the LSO. (At the same time as the Huddersfield Festival!!! )

[cloughie]

I seem not have engaged with the Proms as much this year compared to previous years but I have enjoyed most of what I have listened to and through series recording on HD recorder still have some to watch. Caught the Last Night and thought that was lacking in atmosphere though Oramo did a good job both with baton and voice. The park items distract from the hall but I thought the Welsh contribution was good and the Northern Ireland singing was high quality but something other than the stereotyped Londonderry Air would have been good. The highlight of the season of those I heard was the Oramo Mahler 2.

[gurnemanz]

I do appreciate the Proms but over the last 50 years I have only really ever taken in selected proms that have specifically interested me (as indeed with all live concerts throughout the year). I certainly don't listen to them all, so am in no position to pass a global judgement. We always attend a couple and even at slightly advanced years we still stand (except for very length works, eg Wagner) and nearly always go to the Queen's Arms afterwards for a quick one where it is often possible to see and occasionally chat to performers from the concert you have just attended (eg three string players from the Dresden Staatskapelle last year). I enjoyed the lunchtime Proms from Cadogan,especially Christiane Karg's superb recital on 21 Aug. I wish I'd made the effort to get there. We greatly enjoyed the two Proms we attended this year - Barenboim Elgar 1 and Ades with the Youth Orchestra and am not in accord with the dispiriting "Proms going downhill" type comments above.

[Petrushka]

I thought the Season peaked early on - the Barenboim pair was wonderful, and with Birtwistle's Deep Time we were given a great work of astonishingly intense power; Khovanshchina, Damnation of Faust, and many others. The delights became fewer and farther between for me thereafter - and the better concerts came from the less well-known names and ensembles in the past couple of weeks. Some lousy singing, too.

BUT - the sense of a coherent Season, as opposed to simply a series of (often impressive) concerts, I felt was absent. Looking through the LSO programme for next year (starting next week) I couldn't help feeling that there was the same sort of hotch-potch programming being offered as at the self-proclaimed "World's Greatest Music Festival"*. If The Proms become an ordinary concert series compressed into an eight-week run, I feel that it has lost its unique character.

When I first started listening to/attending the Proms in the 1970s there never was any 'sense of a coherent season' and it is only in recent years that there has ever been anything other than 'a series of (often impressive) concerts'. In more recent times I've found the presence of a 'theme' running through the season to be distracting and unnecessary.

Yes, the season peaked very early on. The two Barenboim concerts and the afternoon Haitink Prom was a very strong start but until I next attended (the Oramo Mahler 2 and Gurrelieder) the season felt flat with a series of mostly routine evenings that failed to take off. The last week of the season looked good on paper but didn't quite live up to the promise in reality. The two RCO Proms fell flat on their face with an atrocious Bruckner 9 and a very routine Mahler 4 both of which soured the final week.

The best of the season were those concerts I attended (that Mahler 4 apart): the two Barenboim evenings; the COE/Haitink; Mahler 2 BBCSO/Oramo; Gurrelieder; Pittsburgh SO/Honeck; LPO/Jurowski and VPO/Harding Mahler 6.

My favourite Prom of the season: Pittsburgh Symphony and Manfred Honeck, great evening that showed how to deliver a memorable Prom.

Worst performance of the season: RCO/Gatti in Bruckner 9. If you want to hear a second rate performance by a great orchestra with a conductor they clearly don't like then it's still there on I-player.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

When I first started listening to/attending the Proms in the 1970s there never was any 'sense of a coherent season' and it is only in recent years that there has ever been anything other than 'a series of (often impressive) concerts'. In more recent times I've found the presence of a 'theme' running through the season to be distracting and unnecessary.

You could well be right, Pet - that my attitude to Proms of the '70s and '80s was based on youthful encounters with new experiences, and that much that I find "missing" in recent years is based on greater experience of a wider repertoire. Allowing for that, I do think that there was a greater sense of "identity"/"personality"/"individuality"/"uniqueness" in the programmes of the '60s, '70s, '80s, and early '90s that withered in the Kenyon years onward - as if the "natural justice" that Robert Simpson hankered after has resulted in a dilution of focus (which is what I meant, rather than the "theme" you mention) with a less exciting sense of coherence that (I probably fantasise) used to be the Proms default setting.