Proms 2017

[wzg]

One of the most glaring and unjustified omissions, as far as British composers are concerned, is Sir Arnold Bax. For one example, his Third Symphony, performed 9 times between 1930 and 1944, including every year between '30 and '34. No performances in the 72 years since. Disgraceful.

Bax was "knocked off the map" by not only Walton, but also Vaughan Williams, my favourite British symphonist.

[BBMmk2]

Maestro267: Quite agree with you there. I think Bax's symphonies are quite atmospheric works. They need to be listened to in a different way than other composers, generally/

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Bax was "knocked off the map" by not only Walton, but also Vaughan Williams, my favourite British symphonist.

Well, yes, I agree - and I don't share the maestro's opinion that it is "disgraceful" a symphony that was given all the support that any composer could wish for when it first appeared, but still failed to "contact" with a wider audience. Even so, the Thread so far has largely involved a fantasy "wish-list", and the "map" of the Proms should be large enough to allow the occasional performance (and, therefore, broadcast) of the rarer repertoire that financial constraints discourage in other concerts series. There is enough interest in Bax to "justify" inclusion at the Proms (where all the Bax enthusiasts can hear it - which is not the case if one of the works gets included in a concert in, say Hemel Hempstead or Aberdeen - and audiences who do not know his Music can hear it and judge for themselves).

This is one of the greatest arguments in favour of the Proms - that it introduces people to Music that they might never otherwise have heard before, whether it's the "New World" Symphony or Le Roman de Fauvel; Tchaikovsky's Pathetique or the Carcere d'Invenzione. A festival of Music in the capital city, during the Summer holiday period, sponsored by public-funded broadcasting should have a map that includes features overlooked elsewhere.

[BBMmk2]

Bantock anyone? His Celtic pagan symphonies, one of them was performed at the proms a few years back but why not other works? Or is he out of fashion?

[maestro267]

Yes, I'd love to hear some more Bantock at the Proms. The Hebridean Symphony is a magnificent work, one of the great sea-based works that British composers are so good at.

Well, yes, I agree - and I don't share the maestro's opinion that it is "disgraceful" a symphony that was given all the support that any composer could wish for when it first appeared, but still failed to "contact" with a wider audience.

But that audience was from over 70 years ago. These works need a chance to "contact" with TODAY'S "wider audience"! The balance needs to be redressed. This music deserves it! The only reason this good music fell into neglect was because of stupid idiotic controllers who thought that cold, heartless serial music was the way forward. And sadly the music that actually says something, that has tunes and emotional appeal, fell into neglect. And until the balance is redressed to a satisfactory degree, the Proms threads will continue to highlight these vital issues of narrow repertoire. The only way things can get better is if awareness is raised.

[Richard Barrett]

stupid idiotic controllers who thought that cold, heartless serial music was the way forward

Can you name some examples of cold, heartless serial music? And who were these stupid idiotic controllers who thought it was the way forward? Certainly not the late William Glock, whom I quote: "I was educated in the classics, and when I came to the BBC I was just as much concerned to promote Haydn and Bach as Gerhard or Nono. When I look back at my Proms programmes, the number of new-old works was greater than the number of new-new works, and that to me was always just as important. Before I started on the Proms, there was one Haydn symphony played in five seasons - No 88 it was. So I tried to include about six a season (...) As for Bach - I well remember a friend of mine being told to get out of a taxi when the driver found that he was on his way to Broadcasting House to conduct two Bach cantatas. There were a lot of people who felt like that."

And while I'm here I'd like to put in a plea against the inexplicable absence from the Proms year after year of any of the 382 symphonies of Sir Osbert Arbuthnot-fforbes, whose work at its best is surely comparable with any other of the myriad fourth-rate notespinners who dominate the Third Programme these days.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think that there is a lot of wishful-thinking in the edited coda to maestro267's #80. The idea that audiences turned away from Bax because of serialism doesn't "fit" the facts that Sibelius, RVW and others of Bax's contemporary non-serial symphonists both thrive in present-day concerts and recordings. Safer ground to "blame" his decline on Mahler and/or Bruckner - without the sort of repeated Proms programming that Bax's Third was afforded (whether or not by "stupid, idiotic controllers"), audiences simply became aware that there were much greater Musical imaginations at work that they would much prefer to listen to. Bax is there (on youTube, in recordings, and in performance - the Second was "Prommed" in the 2011 Season) for anyone interested. If it doesn't excite wider interest, it's feeble to try and blame this on Justin Connolly, Leopold Spinner, or the "stupid, idiotic controller" who commissioned cold-hearted serialist Malcolm Arnold's Fourth Symphony.

It's greatly entertaining to read Forumistas' flights of fancy concerning what they would love to hear at the Proms; less amusing to read flights of fancy as to speculations why others don't share their tastes.

[ahinton]

Can you name some examples of cold, heartless serial music? And who were these stupid idiotic controllers who thought it was the way forward? Certainly not the late William Glock, whom I quote: "I was educated in the classics, and when I came to the BBC I was just as much concerned to promote Haydn and Bach as Gerhard or Nono. When I look back at my Proms programmes, the number of new-old works was greater than the number of new-new works, and that to me was always just as important. Before I started on the Proms, there was one Haydn symphony played in five seasons - No 88 it was. So I tried to include about six a season (...) As for Bach - I well remember a friend of mine being told to get out of a taxi when the driver found that he was on his way to Broadcasting House to conduct two Bach cantatas. There were a lot of people who felt like that."

And while I'm here I'd like to put in a plea against the inexplicable absence from the Proms year after year of any of the 382 symphonies of Sir Osbert Arbuthnot-fforbes, whose work at its best is surely comparable with any other of the myriad fourth-rate notespinners who dominate the Third Programme these days.

Glock has undoubtedly come in for a great deal of flack of which most in entirely unjustified and unjustifiable and for which there's scant evidence in the first place; as fhg implies, Malcolm Arnold was never sidelined during his BBC tenure and Glock was indeed no ardent promoter of "cold-hearted serialism" (whatever that might be) over music that could not even be forced to fit any such description.

As to "the 382 symphonies of Sir Osbert Arbuthnot-fforbes", one might also wonder what Mr Segerstam's thoughts on them might be...

[BBMmk2]

Bax's Spring Fire Symphony was played fairly recently by the Halle orchestra and Elder. He said that he is the only person to have that score of the work? That's quite a statement to make. What happened when Chandos recorded it in their Orchestral Works Vol.2?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Bax's Spring Fire Symphony was played fairly recently by the Halle orchestra and Elder. He said that he is the only person to have that score of the work? That's quite a statement to make. What happened when Chandos recorded it in their Orchestral Works Vol.2?

That's a re-grouping of previously-released recordings, I believe, Bbm: Spring Fire was originally recorded in 1985, long before Elder "procured" his score.

[MrGongGong]

As to "the 382 symphonies of Sir Osbert Arbuthnot-fforbes", one might also wonder what Mr Segerstam's thoughts on them might be...

Not as good as his Oratorios I would guess ?

[vinteuil]

Not as good as his Oratorios I would guess ?

... tho' his "Birth of Hebe" is not quite as awful as some of its detractors might have us believe.

[BBMmk2]

That's a re-grouping of previously-released recordings, I believe, Bbm: Spring Fire was originally recorded in 1985, long before Elder "procured" his score.

Indeed Ferney. I was highlighting it's present format.

I wish for another brass band Prom and also concert bands and why not regimental bands too?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Indeed Ferney. I was highlighting it's present format.

Ah - my apologies; when you asked "what happened when Chandos recorded" it, I misunderstood you.

[BBMmk2]

Ah - my apologies; when you asked "what happened when Chandos recorded" it, I misunderstood you.

No problems! Cheers! :)