Proms 2017

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  • wzg
    Full Member
    • Apr 2016
    • 16

    #76
    Originally posted by maestro267 View Post
    One of the most glaring and unjustified omissions, as far as British composers are concerned, is Sir Arnold Bax. For one example, his Third Symphony, performed 9 times between 1930 and 1944, including every year between '30 and '34. No performances in the 72 years since. Disgraceful.
    Bax was "knocked off the map" by not only Walton, but also Vaughan Williams, my favourite British symphonist.

    Comment

    • BBMmk2
      Late Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 20908

      #77
      Maestro267: Quite agree with you there. I think Bax's symphonies are quite atmospheric works. They need to be listened to in a different way than other composers, generally/
      Don’t cry for me
      I go where music was born

      J S Bach 1685-1750

      Comment

      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
        Gone fishin'
        • Sep 2011
        • 30163

        #78
        Originally posted by wzg View Post
        Bax was "knocked off the map" by not only Walton, but also Vaughan Williams, my favourite British symphonist.
        Well, yes, I agree - and I don't share the maestro's opinion that it is "disgraceful" a symphony that was given all the support that any composer could wish for when it first appeared, but still failed to "contact" with a wider audience. Even so, the Thread so far has largely involved a fantasy "wish-list", and the "map" of the Proms should be large enough to allow the occasional performance (and, therefore, broadcast) of the rarer repertoire that financial constraints discourage in other concerts series. There is enough interest in Bax to "justify" inclusion at the Proms (where all the Bax enthusiasts can hear it - which is not the case if one of the works gets included in a concert in, say Hemel Hempstead or Aberdeen - and audiences who do not know his Music can hear it and judge for themselves).

        This is one of the greatest arguments in favour of the Proms - that it introduces people to Music that they might never otherwise have heard before, whether it's the "New World" Symphony or Le Roman de Fauvel; Tchaikovsky's Pathetique or the Carcere d'Invenzione. A festival of Music in the capital city, during the Summer holiday period, sponsored by public-funded broadcasting should have a map that includes features overlooked elsewhere.
        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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        • BBMmk2
          Late Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 20908

          #79
          Bantock anyone? His Celtic pagan symphonies, one of them was performed at the proms a few years back but why not other works? Or is he out of fashion?
          Don’t cry for me
          I go where music was born

          J S Bach 1685-1750

          Comment

          • maestro267
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 355

            #80
            Yes, I'd love to hear some more Bantock at the Proms. The Hebridean Symphony is a magnificent work, one of the great sea-based works that British composers are so good at.

            Well, yes, I agree - and I don't share the maestro's opinion that it is "disgraceful" a symphony that was given all the support that any composer could wish for when it first appeared, but still failed to "contact" with a wider audience.
            But that audience was from over 70 years ago. These works need a chance to "contact" with TODAY'S "wider audience"! The balance needs to be redressed. This music deserves it! The only reason this good music fell into neglect was because of stupid idiotic controllers who thought that cold, heartless serial music was the way forward. And sadly the music that actually says something, that has tunes and emotional appeal, fell into neglect. And until the balance is redressed to a satisfactory degree, the Proms threads will continue to highlight these vital issues of narrow repertoire. The only way things can get better is if awareness is raised.
            Last edited by maestro267; 26-03-17, 13:28.

            Comment

            • Richard Barrett
              Guest
              • Jan 2016
              • 6259

              #81
              Originally posted by maestro267 View Post
              stupid idiotic controllers who thought that cold, heartless serial music was the way forward
              Can you name some examples of cold, heartless serial music? And who were these stupid idiotic controllers who thought it was the way forward? Certainly not the late William Glock, whom I quote: "I was educated in the classics, and when I came to the BBC I was just as much concerned to promote Haydn and Bach as Gerhard or Nono. When I look back at my Proms programmes, the number of new-old works was greater than the number of new-new works, and that to me was always just as important. Before I started on the Proms, there was one Haydn symphony played in five seasons - No 88 it was. So I tried to include about six a season (...) As for Bach - I well remember a friend of mine being told to get out of a taxi when the driver found that he was on his way to Broadcasting House to conduct two Bach cantatas. There were a lot of people who felt like that."

              And while I'm here I'd like to put in a plea against the inexplicable absence from the Proms year after year of any of the 382 symphonies of Sir Osbert Arbuthnot-fforbes, whose work at its best is surely comparable with any other of the myriad fourth-rate notespinners who dominate the Third Programme these days.

              Comment

              • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                Gone fishin'
                • Sep 2011
                • 30163

                #82
                I think that there is a lot of wishful-thinking in the edited coda to maestro267's #80. The idea that audiences turned away from Bax because of serialism doesn't "fit" the facts that Sibelius, RVW and others of Bax's contemporary non-serial symphonists both thrive in present-day concerts and recordings. Safer ground to "blame" his decline on Mahler and/or Bruckner - without the sort of repeated Proms programming that Bax's Third was afforded (whether or not by "stupid, idiotic controllers"), audiences simply became aware that there were much greater Musical imaginations at work that they would much prefer to listen to. Bax is there (on youTube, in recordings, and in performance - the Second was "Prommed" in the 2011 Season) for anyone interested. If it doesn't excite wider interest, it's feeble to try and blame this on Justin Connolly, Leopold Spinner, or the "stupid, idiotic controller" who commissioned cold-hearted serialist Malcolm Arnold's Fourth Symphony.

                It's greatly entertaining to read Forumistas' flights of fancy concerning what they would love to hear at the Proms; less amusing to read flights of fancy as to speculations why others don't share their tastes.
                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                • ahinton
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 16122

                  #83
                  Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
                  Can you name some examples of cold, heartless serial music? And who were these stupid idiotic controllers who thought it was the way forward? Certainly not the late William Glock, whom I quote: "I was educated in the classics, and when I came to the BBC I was just as much concerned to promote Haydn and Bach as Gerhard or Nono. When I look back at my Proms programmes, the number of new-old works was greater than the number of new-new works, and that to me was always just as important. Before I started on the Proms, there was one Haydn symphony played in five seasons - No 88 it was. So I tried to include about six a season (...) As for Bach - I well remember a friend of mine being told to get out of a taxi when the driver found that he was on his way to Broadcasting House to conduct two Bach cantatas. There were a lot of people who felt like that."

                  And while I'm here I'd like to put in a plea against the inexplicable absence from the Proms year after year of any of the 382 symphonies of Sir Osbert Arbuthnot-fforbes, whose work at its best is surely comparable with any other of the myriad fourth-rate notespinners who dominate the Third Programme these days.
                  Glock has undoubtedly come in for a great deal of flack of which most in entirely unjustified and unjustifiable and for which there's scant evidence in the first place; as fhg implies, Malcolm Arnold was never sidelined during his BBC tenure and Glock was indeed no ardent promoter of "cold-hearted serialism" (whatever that might be) over music that could not even be forced to fit any such description.

                  As to "the 382 symphonies of Sir Osbert Arbuthnot-fforbes", one might also wonder what Mr Segerstam's thoughts on them might be...

                  Comment

                  • BBMmk2
                    Late Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 20908

                    #84
                    Bax's Spring Fire Symphony was played fairly recently by the Halle orchestra and Elder. He said that he is the only person to have that score of the work? That's quite a statement to make. What happened when Chandos recorded it in their Orchestral Works Vol.2?
                    Don’t cry for me
                    I go where music was born

                    J S Bach 1685-1750

                    Comment

                    • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                      Gone fishin'
                      • Sep 2011
                      • 30163

                      #85
                      Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
                      Bax's Spring Fire Symphony was played fairly recently by the Halle orchestra and Elder. He said that he is the only person to have that score of the work? That's quite a statement to make. What happened when Chandos recorded it in their Orchestral Works Vol.2?
                      That's a re-grouping of previously-released recordings, I believe, Bbm: Spring Fire was originally recorded in 1985, long before Elder "procured" his score.
                      [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                      • MrGongGong
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 18357

                        #86
                        Originally posted by ahinton View Post
                        As to "the 382 symphonies of Sir Osbert Arbuthnot-fforbes", one might also wonder what Mr Segerstam's thoughts on them might be...
                        Not as good as his Oratorios I would guess ?

                        Comment

                        • vinteuil
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 12793

                          #87
                          Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                          Not as good as his Oratorios I would guess ?
                          ... tho' his "Birth of Hebe" is not quite as awful as some of its detractors might have us believe.

                          Comment

                          • BBMmk2
                            Late Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 20908

                            #88
                            Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                            That's a re-grouping of previously-released recordings, I believe, Bbm: Spring Fire was originally recorded in 1985, long before Elder "procured" his score.
                            Indeed Ferney. I was highlighting it's present format.

                            I wish for another brass band Prom and also concert bands and why not regimental bands too?
                            Don’t cry for me
                            I go where music was born

                            J S Bach 1685-1750

                            Comment

                            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                              Gone fishin'
                              • Sep 2011
                              • 30163

                              #89
                              Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
                              Indeed Ferney. I was highlighting it's present format.
                              Ah - my apologies; when you asked "what happened when Chandos recorded" it, I misunderstood you.
                              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                              Comment

                              • BBMmk2
                                Late Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 20908

                                #90
                                Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                                Ah - my apologies; when you asked "what happened when Chandos recorded" it, I misunderstood you.
                                No problems! Cheers! :)
                                Don’t cry for me
                                I go where music was born

                                J S Bach 1685-1750

                                Comment

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