Prom 71: 7.09.16 Staatskapelle Dresden, Christian Thielemann and Daniil Trifonov

[Keraulophone]

perhaps it has taken DB a few decades to find his inner Furtwangler

Just so.

[Thropplenoggin]

Barenboim has recorded 3 Bruckner cycles - Berlin Phil., Chicago, and now most recently with the Staatskapelle Berlin: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Peral/4812407 Given what Forum members are saying about how his Furtwanglerian influence has blossomed in his later years, would this last one be worth a punt?

[Cockney Sparrow]

Also - as to the latest Barenbom cycle with the Staatskapelle :

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/bruckner-symphonies-nos-1-9-complete

(On my computer, today the article is not truncated).

[Ferretfancy]

What was the encore? Was in the hall so last to know...

It was Prokofiev, a dance from his ballet Cinderella. I know he made piano versions of music from Romeo and Juliet, so I assume this was also his piano version. No doubt others here can tell us.

[kernelbogey]

I assume this was also his piano version.

That was what was announced, IIRC.

[ahinton]

Also - as to the latest Barenbom cycle with the Staatskapelle :

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/bruckner-symphonies-nos-1-9-complete

(On my computer, today the article is not truncated).

...unlike the Ninth Symphony, which makes the description "complete" all the more unfortunate...

[underthecountertenor]

Yes Jayne the Mozart sounded charmless and DT appeared to have a serious memory lapse before the cadenza of the first movt. I had to stay in the car after hearing a coruscating Richter -like Gnomenreigen on In Tune this afternoon to find out the pianist - turned out to be Trifonov . Mozart must be well under his fingers ....but it's just so tricky.

I'm amazed that no one else has remarked on the memory lapse, which caused a shocking dissonance between orchestra and piano for several bars, far more egregious than the lack of co-ordination in the second movement remarked upon by JLW. Indeed I'd hazard that the former may have caused the latter. Trifonov looked unnerved and dispirited for quite a while. I rather admire a musician's mental strength in being able to carry on in such circumstances, and I wonder whether he was surprised by the warmth of the reception at the end of the concerto (and indeed at the end of the first movement from the usual quarters).

[silvestrione]

I'm amazed that no one else has remarked on the memory lapse, which caused a shocking dissonance between orchestra and piano for several bars, far more egregious than the lack of co-ordination in the second movement remarked upon by JLW. Indeed I'd hazard that the former may have caused the latter. Trifonov looked unnerved and dispirited for quite a while. I rather admire a musician's mental strength in being able to carry on in such circumstances, and I wonder whether he was surprised by the warmth of the reception at the end of the concerto (and indeed at the end of the first movement from the usual quarters).

Yes indeed, the memory lapse seemed to spur him into a rather manic cadenza. But I for one enjoyed the slow movement, where the piano always has such a hard job following on from the wonderful strings at the start: he projected a memorable line. Finale was also too manic for me.

[richardfinegold]

Barenboim has recorded 3 Bruckner cycles - Berlin Phil., Chicago, and now most recently with the Staatskapelle Berlin: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Peral/4812407 Given what Forum members are saying about how his Furtwanglerian influence has blossomed in his later years, would this last one be worth a punt?

I see from the Presto link that the Staatkapelle Berlin is a complete cycle. On Blu Ray, they only released 4-9 (I only purchased 4). My guess based on my limited experience with these cycles would be the latest, and perhaps this maybe as close to a full cycle in modern sound that would be as Furtwangler's intentions? Or perhaps, a la the Elgar 3rd Symphony, we could say something like 'Furtwangler's Complete Bruckner, as realized by Daniel Barenboim'

[Darkbloom]

I really enjoyed the Mozart, I haven't got around to Bruckner yet. Thielemann is one of those conductors whose reputation precedes him a bit, for better or worse, and I was expecting something a bit stodgy and unlikeable. I found it engaging from start to finish, with a fineness and delicacy that was lacking from Barenboim's more robust readings of the previous two nights. Dresden is one of those bands that sound like no one else and Thielemann used it to give us a performance that was as beautiful as I have ever heard. It wasn't beauty at the expense of excitement, as I had feared, but a synthesis of the two. The first movement lapse didn't bother me, and conductor and soloist drew me into the concerto in a remarkably intimate way.

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm amazed that no one else has remarked on the memory lapse, which caused a shocking dissonance between orchestra and piano for several bars, far more egregious than the lack of co-ordination in the second movement remarked upon by JLW. Indeed I'd hazard that the former may have caused the latter. Trifonov looked unnerved and dispirited for quite a while. I rather admire a musician's mental strength in being able to carry on in such circumstances, and I wonder whether he was surprised by the warmth of the reception at the end of the concerto (and indeed at the end of the first movement from the usual quarters).

See ##38 & 52 above.

Indeed, in the orchestral passage afterwards leading to the (as silvestrione says, rather manic) cadenza, DT seemed to be literally hanging his head in shame - quite unlike his usual body language... There was something about his manner that made me think he might flip out and want to start again or storm off stage - but yes, he soldiered on in very professional manner

[Nick Armstrong]

DB of course has spent his life as a Conductor emulating Furtwangler . For many years he made a muddle of it. I was listening to a local broadcast of DB conducting the CSO in Bruckner from the 70s and besides rubato that induced seasickness the balances are occasionally askew with the basses and low brass reminding me of a lawn mower.

Hence I think my lingering suspicions about DB as a conductor - put to rest on Tuesday night.

The only recording from former times by him which I'd heard and rated was the famous Saint-Saens Organ Symphony with Gaston Litaize, and the CSO of course.

The first movement exposition lacked a true pianissimo, smooth, natural flow or much perceivable rubato; pauses were abrupt or ill-timed...

Doesn’t matter where you play, trying to make as much noise as possible, however gleamingly, does Bruckner no favours.

Barenboim’s Bruckner, played on the Berlin Staatskapelle, was - all about that bass; Thielemann’s with the Dresdeners’, all about that brass; and given their tendency to harden and force the tone into tuttis and climaxes - not in a good way.

It obviously came across on the radio to your ears much as it came across to mine in the hall. I can't add anything to your post #55, except to say the Dresden brass were aided and abetted by brassy upper strings.



.

[underthecountertenor]

See ##38 & 52 above.

Indeed, in the orchestral passage afterwards leading to the (as silvestrione says, rather manic) cadenza, DT seemed to be literally hanging his head in shame - quite unlike his usual body language... There was something about his manner that made me think he might flip out and want to start again or storm off stage - but yes, he soldiered on in very professional manner

Sorry, yes, should have acknowledged yours as well as Heldenleben's at #38 which I quoted.

That was exactly my impression of DT's body language (from behind him and slightly to his right in Stalls G), and I too feared he might flip out in some way. Some members of the orchestra could be seen exchanging meaningful glances during the cadenza too.

[jayne lee wilson]

JLW: You might be interested to see that a new Nezet-Seguin recording is being released shortly with the Staatskapelle Dresden:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...3+nezet+seguin

Aha! Can Orpheus tame The Wild Beasts of Thielemann?

Thankyou, Petrushka. Something to look forward to as our poor brief Summer slowly fades.

As teamsaint discovered, the excellent notes accompanying Simone Young's recordings of original or earlier versions of Bruckner can be read & downloaded on the Oehms site.

https://www.oehmsclassics.de/artikel.aspx?voeid=1906

They're some of the best essays I've read on the subject, with examples and comparisons - how the beautiful 5-part arch structure of the 3rd's adagio was reduced to three parts through the revisions, and how the 21 Grand Pauses of the 1873 finale became - wait for it - a mere 3 in the last revision... but it's the earlier one that has the greater unity and continuity...

[BBMmk2]

The Bruckner, I thought was very good, indeed. did CT mention that he uses the Nowak Edition?