Prom 51: 24.08.16 - São Paulo Symphony Orchestra/Marin Alsop

[Maclintick]

The evidence seems to be anecdotal. I'm sure I once heard Eugene Ormandy telling of the composer's arrival at a rehearsal for the first performance, querying the tempo, inspecting the score and declaring that he had written just 'allegro'. (If anyone's recording is at the right tempo, it is surely Ormandy's).

This is not implausible

The anecdotal evidence that the "non allegro" marking was a howler which publishers failed to correct after the first printing is quite compelling. Rachmaninov is alleged to have made the same comments to Mitropoulos, presumably in rehearsals for performances by the NYPO in Dec 1942.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The anecdotal evidence that the "non allegro" marking was a howler which publishers failed to correct after the first printing is quite compelling. Rachmaninov is alleged to have made the same comments to Mitropoulos, presumably in rehearsals for performances by the NYPO in Dec 1942.

And yet - the same marking appears in the composer's own version for two pianos. Such an error appearing in reproductions of the orchestral score is understandable, but for different type-setters to make the same error engraving from different sources is a bit ... odd?

[Maclintick]

And yet - the same marking appears in the composer's own version for two pianos. Such an error appearing in reproductions of the orchestral score is understandable, but for different type-setters to make the same error engraving from different sources is a bit ... odd?

Yes , I agree it's odd, but the orchestral & 2 piano versions were transcribed virtually contemporaneously, so it's conceivable that they were made by the same editor/proofreader/typesetter. I envy guests at that private party in California where Rachmaninov & Horowitz premiered the 2-piano version...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes , I agree it's odd, but the orchestral & 2 piano versions were transcribed virtually contemporaneously, so it's conceivable that they were made by the same editor/proofreader/typesetter.

Conceivable, certainly - but even if this were the case, he (almost certainly) would have been working from the first page of the orchestral manuscript and the first page of the piano manuscript at different points in time. It would be odder than odd if he had engraved the first page of the orchestra version and then immediately that of the piano version AND misread the manuscript tempo marking both times - especially with such an unusual marking (if a composer wrote "Non Allegro", it would not be unlikely that the copyist might have carelessly missed out the "Non" - but for him to add an erroneous "Non" TWICE takes us to new levels of Oddity).

It is a bizarre case - especially as few conductors (and no pianists) take any notice of the "Non". I hadn't realized that Ormandy had performed the orchestral premiere (I'd got it into my head that it was Stokowski) - but this adds substance to the "it shouldn't be 'Non'" argument: his is one of the swiftest performances on record.

[seabright]

I hadn't realized that Ormandy had performed the orchestral premiere (I'd got it into my head that it was Stokowski) - but this adds substance to the "it shouldn't be 'Non'" argument: his is one of the swiftest performances on record.

Even more interesting is that the fastest orchestral recording so far, as per your timings above, was the also very first to be made ... ie: by Leinsdorf and the Rochester Philharmonic in 1953 on a US 'Columbia' LP. The plot thickens! ... Oh, I just found that LP on YouTube (link below) with a photo allegedly of Leinsdorf to accompany the music, though you could have fooled me! ... I haven't timed Alsop but she was tad faster than Leinsdorf ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvE9Red30w8

[Maclintick]

Even more interesting is that the fastest orchestral recording so far, as per your timings above, was the also very first to be made ... ie: by Leinsdorf and the Rochester Philharmonic in 1953 on a US 'Columbia' LP. The plot thickens! ... Oh, I just found that LP on YouTube (link below) with a photo allegedly of Leinsdorf to accompany the music, though you could have fooled me! ... I haven't timed Alsop but she was tad faster than Leinsdorf ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvE9Red30w8

Thanks Seabright. I've huge admiration for Erich Leinsdorf, & would bet on his musical instincts & sheer professonalism ahead of many other conductors of his & later generations....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks Seabright. I've huge admiration for Erich Leinsdorf, & would bet on his musical instincts & sheer professonalism ahead of many other conductors of his & later generations....

[edashtav]

Me,too.

[alywin]

Wasn't it also used in the B&W French television serialization of Robinson Crusoe, whenever he was wandering purposefully around the island. (Not the big main theme of the programme - that had a rhythm to which the words "Here we go Loobie-Loo" could be sung.)

That was French?! I vaguely remember the one I think you're probably referring to, although I don't know if it was B&W since we only had a B&W telly at the time anyway.

Getting back to the Symphonic Dances: I think it was in that that I for the first time noticed a link to Ravel's La Valse ...

[Lat-Literal]

There are a lot of erudite contributions on this thread. In contrast, this one will be something of a shambles. I've read the newspaper reviews. They were very mixed and some were not especially flattering. I thought it was very good. I was hoping for a five out of five. I will give it four. Marin Alsop is one of my favourite conductors. Villa Lobos, Rachmaninoff and Grieg are among my favourite composers. I also like the idea of the Sao Paulo Orchestra and I always enjoy hearing lesser known South American music.

In Nobre's "Kabbalah" the orchestra seemed full of energy. The piece, while short, punches above its weight. What then emerged was a programme which seemed very oddly (un)balanced until the encores showed that it did have some shape. The beautiful Villa Lobos "Valsa da Dor" made sense of the earlier inclusion of the "Prelude" from "Bachianas Brasileiras No.4". Lobo's "Pé de Vento" was a brief firework finale to Nobre's salvo at the start. Between these points, the Grieg "Piano Concerto" and Rachmaninoff's "Symphonic Dances" were wrapped around an improvised piece based on "Land of Hope and Glory" and the first of the aforementioned works by Villa Lobos. Two debuts were made during this time. That of Venezuelan pianist Gabriela Montero, a protege of Martha Argerich and the "Bachianas Brasilieras" itself, none of which had ever been performed before at the Proms.

Some felt Montero's performance of the Grieg and that of the accompanying orchestra was a little disappointing. I didn't think she underwhelmed. Her love of London was evident in the interview beforehand and in the way she took to the stage. I felt her playing was crisp and, erm, classy. Even glassy when it could too easily have been glacial. It was also exceedingly contemporary for better and worse. That is to say that it was only suitably emotional in places but in those places - especially in the climax - it really did reach dizzying heights with a series of button pressing moments. In contrast, the orchestra was a bit out of sorts. It seemed quiet and it didn't always complement her. Now I read that I might have picked up on a matter of "microphony". It was a bit more than that, though, for while some members beamed, others did not exactly display huge amounts of joy.

In the improvisation, and the word I am about to use is chosen knowingly, Montero showed that she is a "star". Her journey from Elgar to ragtime was almost too much of a party piece but it was impressive and by the end of it she had the audience eating out of her hand. The lovely Villa Lobos work which followed it, while awkwardly placed, was so beautiful it kept the momentum. Unfortunately the orchestra again seemed less than giddy during the lengthy Rachmaninoff "Dances" until its finale which was very well performed.

I liked the interview with Marin. Clemency Burton Hill is growing on me, dungarees and all, although everything she said and did was a BBC Proms policy statement. Clarke Peters was a reasonable enough inclusion, not least because he wasn't fearsome to people like me who understand little. I imagine he was pretty good in whatever is or was "The Wire".