Prom 43: 17.08.16 - Martha Argerich/Daniel Barenboim /West–Eastern Divan Orchestra

[bluestateprommer]

Would it be fair to say that I found the concert enjoyable, but not as exceptional as I might have expected?

Yes, it would be fair, but then as this chimes with my own opinion, I would say that :) . I wasn't particularly blown away by these performances of the Wagner selections, and I agree with the idea that Barenboim's "Wagner Symphony" idea didn't really jell as a "symphony". (DB's idea of the Ravel "Spanish Symphony" a while back didn't really work as a "symphony" either, as he seems to go for this kind of idea as a scaffold.) But taken as four substantial "bleeding chunks" of Wagner (perhaps as a past nod to Sir Henry Wood), they were certainly effective enough. It was quite interesting to hear selected musicians from the orchestra talk about playing Wagner, particularly the young Israeli violinist who had to run out of the room that one time early on, because of all the bad historical associations. But equally interestingly, it was interesting to hear SM-P mention that the idea of this set of Wagner selections came from the brass section of the WEDO.

World-beating performances? Maybe not. But good enough? Certainly more than that. The WEDO did dispatch the two encores nicely, the ones that Prommer noted in advance.

[Barbirollians]

I could see the lady TV presenter just above me, though I'm not sure who it was. She certainly had plenty of attention from the make-up person before her appearance and her blue frock looked good in the bright lights, I'm sure. A shame she had to speak so loudly and disturb the pre-concert silence. I'm sure that all will be revealed in a couple of weeks.

I found the Wagner rather disjointed and, as someone else wrote, the orchestra lacked some of the real weight that composer needs. A couple of very prominent brass inaccuracies spoiled the flow for me too.



Was anyone else struck by how the two stars have aged? Pottering on and off the platform together, they looked like someone's grandparents. Some interesting comments on that subject in the extensive interview with DB in Wednesday's Guardian.

Would it be fair to say that I found the concert enjoyable, but not as exceptional as I might have expected?

They are both well in their 70s !

[BBMmk2]

Wondering whether her no-shows may be to do with her being in remission from having suffered two spells of cancer...?

I didn't know this. Sympathies for her but hope she remains in remission

[Prommer]

Barenboim did his best with the bleeding chunks... I too think one cannot claim anything greater than to say they are a collection of pieces by the same composer: this was no symphony, bro'...

The Tannhauser excerpt was very fine indeed - when his trademark Furtwanglerian attempts at varying the pulse (and so achieve the Wagnerian melos) worked. He can be very impetuous in this music, wilfully so sometimes.

The Meistersinger prelude to Act 1 had some slightly strange choices in terms of balance, which made one notice new things in this furiously busy and bustling piece, but to no great compelling effect. The prelude to Act 3 did not plumb the depths as it can.

[Barbirollians]

The bleeding chunks symphony did not really work for me either . Argerich I thought was outstanding as ever . She is a consummate Liszt player and for a pianist renowned for her fireworks she finds real depth of feeling in the quasi Adagio .

[Nick Armstrong]

The Tannhauser excerpt was very fine indeed...
The Meistersinger prelude to Act 1 had some slightly strange choices in terms of balance, which made one notice new things in this furiously busy and bustling piece, but to no great compelling effect. The prelude to Act 3 did not plumb the depths as it can.

I rather enjoyed the bringing out of different lines within the music in the Meistersinger Act 1 prelude - principally due, I felt, to a pretty buccaneering horn section who were given their collective heads, something I personally always enjoy but may not be to all tastes! Agreed that the Act 3 prelude wasn't quite up there. The rip-roaring Lohengrin digestif shivered the Caliban timbers though!

[Maclintick]

Argerich I thought was outstanding as ever . She is a consummate Liszt player and for a pianist renowned for her fireworks she finds real depth of feeling in the quasi Adagio .

Though not a particular fan of MA - as mentioned by others, her tendency to rush has always worried me - nor of Liszt PC1, which can oscillate nauseously between flashy bombast & sentimentality, I agree unreservedly. MA & WEDO/DB extracted the max from this concerto.

[Darkbloom]

I only heard it on the radio, so I couldn't fully appreciate Barenboim's 'pillowy piannissimos' (according to SMP, who then went one better and gave us 'burnished brass'. Never heard that one before!) but the second half sounded a little dull. I suppose it depends on your taste, but I have always found the Tannhauser overture underwhelming (and there's always a bit in there that reminds me uncomfortably of a song from 'The Sound of Music'), and the dog's dinner that is 'Dawn and Siegfried's Rhine Journey' doesn't get any better the more you hear it. Bleeding chunks? More like a bloody mess.

[Prommer]

Well it ain't a dog's dinner if you have spent a bleeding chunk of your life on the previous three and a little bit over operas before this strikes up...!

[Tony Halstead]

Please elucidate/ translate... you have 'lost me ' on this!

[Prommer]

The music of the Dawn/Rhine Journey picks up many of the themes of the preceding three operas of the Ring. So for those who have imbibed them, and then arrive at this point of the fourth opera when this music is played, it does not in any way resemble a dog's dinner but is a very tight piece of music.

[Tony Halstead]

The music of the Dawn/Rhine Journey picks up many of the themes of the preceding three operas of the Ring. So for those who have imbibed them, and then arrive at this point of the fourth opera when this music is played, it does not in any way resemble a dog's dinner but is a very tight piece of music.

Thank you! All now clear and beautifully clarified/ expressed!

[Darkbloom]

The music of the Dawn/Rhine Journey picks up many of the themes of the preceding three operas of the Ring. So for those who have imbibed them, and then arrive at this point of the fourth opera when this music is played, it does not in any way resemble a dog's dinner but is a very tight piece of music.

That's fine, but it doesn't work in isolation as a discrete piece of music. They round it off by chucking a bit of Act 2 in at the end and it's just a total mess. The Rhine Journey itself isn't substantial enough on its own so they bulk it out with a bit of other stuff to justify its existence. I agree that it works when heard in relation to the rest of the Ring, of course, but when they monkey around with it it resembles nothing so much as a bit of hack work. No doubt it pleased early Proms audiences, but every time I hear it now it grates on my nerves.

[Prommer]

That's fine, but it doesn't work in isolation as a discrete piece of music. They round it off by chucking a bit of Act 2 in at the end and it's just a total mess. The Rhine Journey itself isn't substantial enough on its own so they bulk it out with a bit of other stuff to justify its existence. I agree that it works when heard in relation to the rest of the Ring, of course, but when they monkey around with it it resembles nothing so much as a bit of hack work. No doubt it pleased early Proms audiences, but every time I hear it now it grates on my nerves.

Well yes, the interpolated ending of the Rhine Journey Music from Act II is tacked on, in the concert version, mostly to reference what then happens later down at Gibichung Hall, ending with the vengeance trio which closes that act - and which seals Siegfried's fate. This is the official thematic justification for the leap on to the Funeral Music, but of course people completely disrupted this because it doesn't flow musically and instead it sounds like the chance to have a nice clap.

[kernelbogey]

it's just a total mess.

Even worse the music in a trailer for the concert's repeat on the World Service which I heard during last night: it segues seamlessly from the openng bars of the Liszt into Wagner without a break (or fades)!