Prom 41: 16.08.16 - The Hallé – Mahler’s Das Lied von der Erde

[Stanley Stewart]

Fascinated to hear Alice Coote in last night's R3 broadcast (16 Aug) after hearing her as soloist in Friday's (12 Aug), Queen's Hall, R3,11am broadcast of Das Lied von der Erde, arr by Schoenberg for chamber orchestra, at EIF. She was partnered by Stuart Skelton, also in fine voice, and not so strained as his oppo at RAH. A splendid starter of Wagner's Siegfried Idyll set the tone for the anguish of Das Lied... I'm now looking forward to the TV relay of the RAH Prom, Thurs, 25 Aug, BBC4, 22.00-23.50hrs - the programme also includes Berlioz's Overture, King Lear and Colin Matthews's, Berceuse for Dresden, and, in particular, will study Ms Coote's technical command over a large orchestra as well as her adroit skill in working such a cavernous space. Recorder at the ready!

[jayne lee wilson]

I didn't attend to this Earthsong so I won't comment specifically on that, but I'm a little surprised that anyone should find carefully-considered subtle adjustments to Mahler's orchestration, by conductor or contemporary composer, puzzling or alarming in principle....

After all, Mahler was an inveterate arranger of other composers' work himself: the completion (involving much original composition) of Weber's Die Drei Pintos, selections and orchestrations from Bach's 4 Suites, the String Orchestral versions of Beethoven's Op. 95 and Schubert's D.810 String Quartets; reorchestration of Beethoven's 9th (Mahler imagining what Beethoven might have written with a "modern orchestra" at his disposal....so much for HIPPs) and most fascinating of all for me: editions of Schumann's 4 Symphonies with changes to both orchestration and dynamics, again with the aim of clarifying the musical line and argument. His brief cuts to some of the Schumann finales are less welcome but - if you know the works well you'll find the versions ed. Mahler instructive and enjoyable. (His uncomprehending truncation of Bruckner's 4th Symphony is definitely one to forget...!)

Mahler reportedly said about his own music - "if, after I've gone, anything sounds wrong, change it." Practical, working musician and performer that he was, I'm sure he'd have been intrigued to hear anyone's attempts to do that; and if it doesn't work - so what, leave it, change it back. The music's still there you know, and as the case of Bruckner shows, if it's great enough, fairly indestructible!
(Remember Alma's account of the rehearsals of Mahler's own 5th Symphony, of how he'd overwritten for percussion? At least he was still around to put the blue pencil across that one...)

And I would love to have Mahler's ghost for company while listening to Dark Flame - Uri Caine's jazz-classical-world, decidedly free recreations of Mahler's songs...
(...there's a yanquin and a dizi in The Lonely One in Autumn...)

[ahinton]

I didn't attend to this Earthsong so I won't comment specifically on that, but I'm a little surprised that anyone should find carefully-considered subtle adjustments to Mahler's orchestration, by conductor or contemporary composer, puzzling or alarming in principle....

After all, Mahler was an inveterate arranger of other composers' work himself: the completion (involving much original composition) of Weber's Die Drei Pintos, selections and orchestrations from Bach's 4 Suites, the String Orchestral versions of Beethoven's Op. 95 and Schubert's D.810 String Quartets; reorchestration of Beethoven's 9th (Mahler imagining what Beethoven might have written with a "modern orchestra" at his disposal....so much for HIPPs) and most fascinating of all for me: editions of Schumann's 4 Symphonies with changes to both orchestration and dynamics, again with the aim of clarifying the musical line and argument. His brief cuts to some of the Schumann finales are less welcome but - if you know the works well you'll find the versions ed. Mahler instructive and enjoyable. (His uncomprehending truncation of Bruckner's 4th Symphony is definitely one to forget...!)

Mahler reportedly said about his own music - "if, after I've gone, anything sounds wrong, change it." Practical, working musician and performer that he was, I'm sure he'd have been intrigued to hear anyone's attempts to do that; and if it doesn't work - so what, leave it, change it back. The music's still there you know, and as the case of Bruckner shows, if it's great enough, fairly indestructible!
(Remember Alma's account of the rehearsals of Mahler's own 5th Symphony, of how he'd overwritten for percussion? At least he was still around to put the blue pencil across that one...)

And I would love to have Mahler's ghost for company while listening to Dark Flame - Uri Caine's jazz-classical-world, decidedly free recreations of Mahler's songs...
(...there's a yanquin and a dizi in The Lonely One in Autumn...)

Good points all - and, of course, there's also Schönberg compl. Riehn chamber version, of which a view that rather disparages it compared to mahler's original may be found at http://www.musicweb-international.co...rde_MS1406.htm . Nothing wrong with doing it, for sure and, as you rightly point out, Mahler was no slouch at rearranging and reorchestrating other composers' works when it suited him to do so but, whilst I would not criticise Colin M's work on this per se, the perceived need to "improve" the orchestration of the first song on the grounds of "improving" the balance between singer and orchestra I continue to find suspect at the very least, given Mahler's brilliance in such matters. There's a chamber arrangement of Mahler's Ninth Symphony which, whilst intriguing insofar as it goes, is not something to which I would want to listen again - and Tony Payne made a scaled down version of Bruckner's Second Symphony...

[LeMartinPecheur]

Mahler reportedly said about his own music - "if, after I've gone, anything sounds wrong, change it." Practical, working musician and performer that he was, I'm sure he'd have been intrigued to hear anyone's attempts to do that; and if it doesn't work - so what, leave it, change it back. The music's still there you know, and as the case of Bruckner shows, if it's great enough, fairly indestructible!
(Remember Alma's account of the rehearsals of Mahler's own 5th Symphony, of how he'd overwritten for percussion? At least he was still around to put the blue pencil across that one...)

jlw: thanks for that. I'm a touch surprised that nobody has revisited the point I tried to make in #12, that the first song requires a heldentenor voice that all too frequently is a long way short of ideal for the other two.

Yes, I know there are honourable exceptions, on disc at least (though how much do they owe to very sensitive recording engineers?), but wouldn't it help performances - live ones especially - if just a little less heft were needed in the first song?

I do think Mahler would have agreed if he'd heard the results of his first thoughts!

Can anyone say how much orchestral oomph Matthews has removed in the first song, and did any un-warned listener spot the changes? Remember that Elder apparently asked Matthews to do a rescoring that no one would notice...

[Alison]

The sense of struggle in (i) is for me part of the fascination and appeal of the work.

I am institutionally against Colin Matthews fiddling around with it.

I don't want it more comfortable.

[LeMartinPecheur]

The sense of struggle in (i) is for me part of the fascination and appeal of the work.

I don't want it more comfortable.

Alison: I know what you mean and sometimes might agree with you. But only when all three tenor songs really come off, and that's not very often IMHO!

[Petrushka]

Alison: I know what you mean and sometimes might agree with you. But only when all three tenor songs really come off, and that's not very often IMHO!

Mahler was surely asking the impossible in having the same tenor sing all three songs. There are very, very few who can bring it off satisfactorily. Rene Kollo comes closest, I think, and as he recorded it three times (for Solti, Karajan and Bernstein) others must have thought so too!

I too am against any fiddling with the first song in order to make it 'easier' and perhaps the best solution is to have two tenors!

Incidentally, wasn't Jonas Kaufmann going to attempt to sing the whole work, tenor and contralto songs, but withdrew?

[Barbirollians]

Catching the second half on BBC4 tonight I tend to agree about the rather shouty tenor and the rescoring of the first movement .

I have enjoyed the rest of it especially some outstanding woodwind playing from the Halle . Fine singer as she is Alice Coote does not move me in this score as Ferrier and Baker do .

[kernelbogey]

Watched this on BBC4, and enjoyed the Matthews sufficiently to want to hear it again. I too caught the resemblance to the Arvo Paert piece mentioned by Jayne. The Dresden raid has a particular resonance for me, as I was born two days later. I've yet to visit the city....

I haven't heard the Mahler in a long time and somehow this performance left me rather cold.

Hannah French was a refreshing presenter - totally new to me.