Prom 41: 16.08.16 - The Hallé – Mahler’s Das Lied von der Erde

[Carlos V]

In the hall we could hear the harps clearly and loudly. Maybe too loudly, as they sounded too metallic for my taste.

[jayne lee wilson]

Perhaps the most striking precedent to Colin Matthews' Dresden Berceuse would be Arvo Pärt's Cantus In Memoriam Benjamin Britten, with its similarly dense, static textures against a tolling funereal bell. The cello's descending phrases in the Matthews piece even seem to echo the repeated, almost frozen descents which the Cantus forms into a kind of sonic glacier.

It was also impossible not to recall Matthews' Cortège, recently released on NMC, which again, is an anguished, slow moving, sometimes densely-textured lament, sharing the heavy tread and processional feel with the Berceuse, but with a far angrier mood and a savagely cutting orchestral edge to its monumental climaxes. Bells occur in this 1989 masterpiece too, though in a different, lighter and quieter sound and role as the music finds an uneasy peace towards the close. This new NMC album includes the 2nd Cello Concerto (1994-6), perhaps another intertext to the Dresden work in the sostenuto expression of its movement titles and often seeming to float or hover, then finding release in intense singing lines.

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of a recording of the piece performed tonight, as the latest NMC release is one of the best Colin Matthews albums, with three of his finest pieces - the third being the Violin Concerto recorded at its 2010 Proms premiere. (And if you've never encountered the Cortège before watch out - you won't know what's hit you...)

http://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/colin-matthews-violin-concerto-cortege-cello-concerto-no-2-various-artists/5023363022729

(As for production (HDs) - yes, the cello seemed rather close, the Hallé at first distant, the perspective seeming to alter on the fly; and the Berceuse would benefit from greater orchestral presence and spaciousness. As for those 8 Dresden bells, I'm not sure whether it would be better for them to blend more into the orchestral texture or sound out with greater separation around it. Or even record them in a different acoustic to the orchestra itself (as sometimes per the organ in Saint-Saens' 3rd) and layer them in during mastering....what about an anthology of tintinnabular lament, with the Part and Jonathan Harvey's Mortuos Plango, Vivos Voco.... )

[Richard Barrett]

Do we have any opinions on the re-scoring by one of the Matthews Bros of the 1st mov't of the Mahler? For those who missed the mention of it, one gathered that Elder was of the opinion that Mahler, as was his way once he's heard a work's premiere, would have made a lot of tweaks.

Maybe he would, but, given that he was a million times the composer that either or both of the Matthewses could ever be, they really ought to leave well alone. And on the other hand we could just assume that Mahler, who by that time in his life possessed a command of orchestration that very few composers before or since have been able to approach, actually knew what he was doing - after all this very piece contains some of his most delicate scoring elsewhere.

As for the harps, I would be interested to know where they were placed onstage. The last time I saw this work performed, they were sat much further forward than usual, and in the centre, which changed their place in the orchestral balance quite considerably.

[pastoralguy]

Yes, Davis! Curiously,I've heard the King Lear only live. I suppose that's because I've never rated Berlioz high enough to invest money in him! I shall try to find Gibson's interpretation. Cheers.

There's a Chandos cd of Sir Alexander Gibson conducting Berlioz Overtures that's available for less than £3.00 on Amazon.

The story behind that disc it that there would often be some studio time left over at the end of the project to record the Sibelius symphonies. So, the librarian would bring up a Berlioz overture and it was played with the red light on! The disc ended up winning multiple awards but was known in the orchestra as 'SNO sight reads Berlioz'! It's well worth a listen.

[edashtav]

A fascinating tale of music in the Red Light district, pastoralguy.
I must hurry to Amazon before stocks are exhausted.
Thanks.
Later ... CD ordered!

[ahinton]

Maybe he would, but, given that he was a million times the composer that either or both of the Matthewses could ever be

He was a million times the composer that most of us are.

they really ought to leave well alone. And on the other hand we could just assume that Mahler, who by that time in his life possessed a command of orchestration that very few composers before or since have been able to approach, actually knew what he was doing - after all this very piece contains some of his most delicate scoring elsewhere.

There's no possible argument with any of that. I don't know anything about what the Matthewses did here, or how much was done; I must try to find out but, in the meantime, I have to admit that I would not dare to alter a semiquaver in that utterly exquisite score. That said, they did collaborate with Cooke on the Tenth Symphony a long time ago...

[ahinton]

OK, here's some information and a score to peruse at http://www.universaledition.com/Das-...172/work/14030 .

I see mention only of Colin Matthews, not David Matthews, in the text and on the score.

It seems that the overall orchestral line-up is unchanged from Mahler's original.

The introductory text includes the sentence "Colin Matthews was commissioned by Sir Mark Elder and the Hallé Orchestra to arrange the first movement of the Lied von der Erde in order to create a better balance between the voice and the orchestra, which in Mahler’s original is famously somewhat problematic (the piece was premiered posthumously and Mahler was unable to make his usual improvements)".

If these alleged shortcomings in Mahler's orchestration were (as appears to be the case) perceived originally by Mark Elder and that this prompted him to commission Colin to reorchestrate the movement in order to "improve" the balance between voice and orchestra, I am left wondering why; surely such balance problems are mostly down to the performers? One might as well reorchestrate the score of Salome with a view to "improving" the balance between singers and orchestra - an equally unnecessary task, given Strauss's innate virtuosity in such matters. I am surprised that a conductor of Elder's stature concluded that tweaking the scoring of a movement of Das Lied needed to be done.

OK, Mahler himself might well have tweaked his score following the first performances had he lived to do so, but which of us could guess at the details of how he'd have done this? Moreover, who's to say in any case that any such tweaks that he made would be dfoe the purposes of rectifying shortcomings in the balance between voice and orchestra rather than other considerations?

I remain perplexed...

[edashtav]

Perhaps the most striking precedent to Colin Matthews' Dresden Berceuse would be Arvo Part's Cantus In Memoriam Benjamin Britten, with its similarly dense, static textures against a tolling funereal bell. The cello's descending phrases in the Matthews piece even seem to echo the repeated, almost frozen descents which the Cantus forms into a kind of sonic glacier.

It was also impossible not to recall Matthews' Cortège, recently released on NMC, which again, is an anguished, slow moving, sometimes densely-textured lament, sharing the heavy tread and processional feel with the Berceuse, but with a far angrier mood and a savagely cutting orchestral edge to its monumental climaxes. Bells occur in this 1989 masterpiece too, though in a different, lighter and quieter sound and role as the music finds an uneasy peace towards the close. This new NMC album includes the 2nd Cello Concerto (1994-6), perhaps another intertext to the Dresden work in the sostenuto expression of its movement titles and often seeming to float or hover, then finding release in intense singing lines.

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of a recording of the piece performed tonight, as the latest NMC release is one of the best Colin Matthews albums, with three of his finest pieces - the third being the Violin Concerto recorded at its 2010 Proms premiere. (And if you've never encountered the Cortege before watch out - you won't know what's hit you...)

http://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/colin-matthews-violin-concerto-cortege-cello-concerto-no-2-various-artists/5023363022729

(As for production (HDs) - yes, the cello seemed rather close, the Hallé at first distant, the perspective seeming to alter on the fly; and the Berceuse would benefit from greater orchestral presence and spaciousness. As for those 8 Dresden bells, I'm not sure whether it would be better for them to blend more into the orchestral texture or sound out with greater separation around it. Or even record them in a different acoustic to the orchestra itself (as sometimes per the organ in Saint-Saens' 3rd) and layer them in during mastering....what about an anthology of tintinnabular lament, with the Part and Jonathan Harvey's Mortuos Plango, Vivos Voco.... )

I've ordered the CD containing Cortège having been very satisfied by the sound and performances in the Suzuki Stravinsky CD that you kindly recommended.
Your comparison between Berceuse and Part's Cantus is very helpful.

[ahinton]

And while we're about it, oughtn't someone to tell UE about the misprint in the oboes in bar 74 in the Matthewsed version of the Mahler?...

Colin M was commissioned some years ago to orchestrate a few of Debussy's piano Préludes and he got so into doing this that he ended up orchestrating the entire cycle; I think that the results are exquisite. But this was a quite different exercise that was in no way predicated upon anyone's assumption that the originals needed to be "improved" by clothing them in orchestral sound and, of course, the originals remain intact (as of course does Mahler's).

People used to accuse Godowsky of trying to be clever with Chopin's Études and "improving" them, whereas that monumental act or re-creation had in reality been inspired by the very opposite stance and, again, Chopin's original pieces remain intact.

[Carlos V]

Maybe he would, but, given that he was a million times the composer that either or both of the Matthewses could ever be, they really ought to leave well alone. And on the other hand we could just assume that Mahler, who by that time in his life possessed a command of orchestration that very few composers before or since have been able to approach, actually knew what he was doing - after all this very piece contains some of his most delicate scoring elsewhere.

As for the harps, I would be interested to know where they were placed onstage. The last time I saw this work performed, they were sat much further forward than usual, and in the centre, which changed their place in the orchestral balance quite considerably.

The harps were more or less at their usual position. Left side of the stage (the audience's left), with the celesta further left. Two mandoline players were placed between the harps and the string section. The percussion section was right behind the harps,

[Carlos V]

Mr. Kunde was inaudible in the first song from up in the circle. Ms. Coote fared better. I enjoyed the performance, even though I had a hard time trying to ignore the background noise. A particularly ill-timed cough ruined the final chord. Well, that's live.

I've listened now to the broadcast. Good work by the engineers. I'm glad the audience at home got to hear Mr. Kunde. I don't know what happened to him, but his voice was swallowed up by the hall, something that didn't happen to Coote's or any of the soloists from the orchestra: flute, oboe, english horn, bassoon, cello and violin solos were clearly audible. And it wasn't a matter of his voice being drowned by the orchestra: the sparsely accompanied refrain sounded weak as well.

[Richard Barrett]

The harps were more or less at their usual position. Left side of the stage (the audience's left), with the celesta further left. Two mandoline players were placed between the harps and the string section.

Thanks for that. So the harp sound in the broadcast was obviously assisted by the engineers, not really necessarily in my opinion.

[gradus]

I missed this but must 'listen again'. The tenor in Das Lied sometimes has a pretty hard time making himself heard where the conductor is not scrupulous about balance, perhaps conductors should lay down the baton and just walk to the body of the hall and listen to what they're getting the orchestra and soloist to do which is not to say that Mahler always intended the voice to be clearly audible, imv. Finding the highest notes in this score can tax even the finest eg Vickers who came to grief trying to cope with Mahler's writing some years ago at the Proms.

[Carlos V]

I missed this but must 'listen again'. The tenor in Das Lied sometimes has a pretty hard time making himself heard where the conductor is not scrupulous about balance, perhaps conductors should lay down the baton and just walk to the body of the hall and listen to what they're getting the orchestra and soloist to do which is not to say that Mahler always intended the voice to be clearly audible, imv. Finding the highest notes in this score can tax even the finest eg Vickers who came to grief trying to cope with Mahler's writing some years ago at the Proms.

Isn't that what Mahler intended? The score makes impossible demands on the voices so their struggles add to the mood of the piece, which is of a doomed fight.

[Carlos V]

(As for production (HDs) - yes, the cello seemed rather close, the Hallé at first distant, the perspective seeming to alter on the fly; and the Berceuse would benefit from greater orchestral presence and spaciousness. As for those 8 Dresden bells, I'm not sure whether it would be better for them to blend more into the orchestral texture or sound out with greater separation around it. Or even record them in a different acoustic to the orchestra itself (as sometimes per the organ in Saint-Saens' 3rd) and layer them in during mastering....what about an anthology of tintinnabular lament, with the Part and Jonathan Harvey's Mortuos Plango, Vivos Voco.... )

In the hall, it was the other way around. The cello voice was drowned by the orchestra, at some points so completely that it was a bit comical watching the soloist bowing to no apparent effect. At least we had the advantage of being able to enjoy the interplay between the pre-recorded bells (blasting out from a pair of speakers placed right behind the first violins) and the bells on the stage (placed at the back, with the rest of the percussion section). That was (for me) the highlight of the piece, which brought memories of Rautavaara's Cantus Arcticus. In particular the moment where the pre-recorded bells join the orchestra was eerily similar.