Prom 20: 30.07.16 - Berlioz: Romeo and Juliet

[edashtav]

PROM 20 ORR/JEG/MONTEVERDI CHOIR/SOLOISTS. BERLIN - ROMEO AND JULIET. R3 RADIOPLAYER LIVE @320kbps.,


With JEG’s interpretations, it’s often hard to single out a phrase or section for detailed comment, as he is not an artist who often moulds or phrases affectionately or in any obviously expressive way, tending to use tempi, dynamic contrast and sheer rhythmic energy to make his musical points or structural landmarks.

A most perceptive and helpful comment, Jayne!

[cloughie]

I didn't think the bass soloist's tuning was always spot on!

[Ferretfancy]

Could you elaborate?

I know the work quite well, with several recordings in my collection, including the wonderful old LSO version with Pierre Monteux. I always find the love music a little protracted, but must be honest and say that I lack the ability to say where if possible it could be shortened. So, my remark about a need for an editor was lightly offered.

Reading the notes for last night's performance I discovered that in the space of about seven years following the Symphonie Fantastique Berlioz produced Lelio,Harold in Italy, Benvenuto Cellini and the Grande messe des Morts What an amazing man!

[BBMmk2]

#30 JLW

I do find it confusing, when composers call a work a symphony, when somebody else, like yourself or me, find it quite hard to differentiate.

Like in other works, like Mahler's Symphopny No.8, or Britten's spring Symphony, come to mind, as to whether they are true symphonies.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I know the work quite well, with several recordings in my collection, including the wonderful old LSO version with Pierre Monteux. I always find the love music a little protracted, but must be honest and say that I lack the ability to say where if possible it could be shortened. So, my remark about a need for an editor was lightly offered.

I first got to know the work (or part of it) when most LP versions consisted of "excerpts", which rather diminished my impression of the work as a symphony. I think of it as a large cantata.

[King_Ouf_I]

#30 JLW

I do find it confusing, when composers call a work a symphony, when somebody else, like yourself or me, find it quite hard to differentiate.

Like in other works, like Mahler's Symphopny No.8, or Britten's spring Symphony, come to mind, as to whether they are true symphonies.

I used to be confused, but then I sang in a performance of Mahler 8 - a revelation, particularly in regard to the first movement: it was one of the easiest pieces of musical analysis I'd done for ages. Everything is there - sonata form, subject groups, bridging passages, coda, development of themes... The second movement, having to incorporate, as it were, andante, scherzo and finale, is more tricky to analyse, but immensely rewarding to try.

[cloughie]

#30 JLW

I do find it confusing, when composers call a work a symphony, when somebody else, like yourself or me, find it quite hard to differentiate.

Like in other works, like Mahler's Symphopny No.8, or Britten's spring Symphony, come to mind, as to whether they are true symphonies.

It all started going wrong when some composer way back decided to put voices in a Symphony, thinking it was a joyful sound!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It all started going wrong when some composer way back decided to put voices in a Symphony, thinking it was a joyful sound!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ohZjb44rI

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I first got to know the work (or part of it) when most LP versions consisted of "excerpts", which rather diminished my impression of the work as a symphony. I think of it as a large cantata.

I think that much damage might have been done to the Symphony's reception as a Symphony by such recordings. Watching the concert a few times on the i-Player (last chance to see tomorrow) confirms that the more I listen to the work complete, the more a Symphonic Thread (a "trajectory" to be flash) becomes increasingly apparent. It is a peculiar structure - and it doesn't help that the only (AFAIK) study devoted to the work published in English is written by somebody who seems as confused by the work as he is insightful (and how I wish that the late Ian Kemp had been called upon to write such a study). Taken movement by movement, it does seem as if the composer doesn't know whether he wants to write an Opera (the Convoi funebre and the finale), a Paean to Shakespeare (the Strophes), a Ballet (Romeo au tombeau, a narrative Cantata (the Prologue), or a Symphony (the Slow Movement Scene d'Amour, the Scherzo La Riene Mab).

But this is typical of Berlioz at this time in his career - not-quite-right harmonies, rhythmic patterns that don't quite do what's expected, unconventional orchestration, phrases that go on longer than expected, melodies that are a bit weird - but put all these individual "anomalies" together, and it works, and works wonderfully. So it is with this astonishing Symphony: what at first listening sounds like a vaguely strung together series of bananas events - especially if you're expecting things that aren't there - gradually coheres and becomes something utterly valid and unique - and quite magnificent - as a Symphony.

I think I said before, but it bears repetition - there isn't a better composer born in the first two thirds of the 19th Century than Berlioz; and this is one of his finest achievements.

[Cockney Sparrow]

The TV iPlayer says it expires tomorrow evening (30 August) and the page on the TV iPlayer took some finding. Here it is:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07mlqhm/bbc-proms-2016-berlioz-romeo-and-juliet

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The TV iPlayer says it expires tomorrow evening (30 August) and the page on the TV iPlayer took some finding. Here it is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...meo-and-juliet

- many thanks, CS; and apologies for not including the link in my post. Not at all a bad performance, once the opening 20 bars or so have been negotiated!

[teamsaint]

- many thanks, CS; and apologies for not including the link in my post. Not at all a bad performance, once the opening 20 bars or so have been negotiated!

thanks for your previous post Ferney.
disappointing that there is so little available to read on this work. I assume you were referring to the Julian Rushton book .
there also seems to be this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1580460941/ref=tmm_hrd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new&qid=&sr=

At least a sensible price from the nice people at Books etc, who I heartily recommend for your online purchases.

Edit: buy direct from Books etc's own website, and save the £2.80 P and p !!

http://www.booksetc.co.uk/books/view/-9781580460941

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks for those links, ts - I didn't know about this book. £20 is a leetle steep for me at the moment (I'm still living on Bean on Toast until Friday, following my Ferneyhough extravagance - worth every penny) but it shall go on "The List"!

Yes Julian Rushton's Cambridge handbook is the one I have (and I repeat, there are insights here) - keeps referring to unpublished (that I can find) material by Ian Kemp with which he disagrees. I so wish ...

[teamsaint]

Thanks for those links, ts - I didn't know about this book. £20 is a leetle steep for me at the moment (I'm still living on Bean on Toast until Friday, following my Ferneyhough extravagance - worth every penny) but it shall go on "The List"!

Yes Julian Rushton's Cambridge handbook is the one I have (and I repeat, there are insights here) - keeps referring to unpublished (that I can find) material by Ian Kemp with which he disagrees. I so wish ...

Please excuse my lack of knowledge here but I am I right to assume that you have this study on R and J , and that there is more *(possibly) unpublished work?

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9IMLGQeTmDoC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=berlioz+ian+kemp+romeo&source=bl&ots=iq6H1HwfVu&sig=I1-eVkRsCZln9SyIlPSjsSaeYBU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig_4OIyufOAhXBVRoKHZdACrIQ6AEIJTAC#v=onepage&q=berlioz%20ian%20kemp%20romeo&f=false

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Please excuse my lack of knowledge here but I am I right to assume that you have this study on R and J , and that there is more *(possibly) unpublished work?
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0romeo&f=false

Aha! No - I don't have the Berlioz Studies book, and didn't know that Kemp's work appeared in it: many ta's - another one on The List (and down to half-a-bean on toast ). And rereading the Rushton, it's clear that I've misunderstood him - he says that Kemp "kindly shared the material of his article before publication"; I had previously presumed that he meant "before the publication of Rushton's own" study - but that, of course, would be self-evident had I bothered to think about it (how could he mention seeing anything other than before the publication of the work in which he cites seeing it?!) - AND the Berlioz Studies book (with specific reference to Kemp's article) is included in the Bibliography.

I need to stay in more

Still - on the upside; a couple more books to look forward to getting!