Prom 17: 28.07.16 - Roger Norrington conducts Berlioz, Beethoven and Brahms

[Sir Velo]

Something rather irreverent occurs to me - it might not be a matter of needing to make louder sounds as much as the string players, hearing themselves for the first time as a result of these recordings, used the old fiddlers' trick of splashing the vibrato on all over like Brut 33 in order to cover up inaccurate intonation?

Highly improbable I think! The idea that Toscanini, Weingartner, Beecham et al would have tolerated such a practice if it were anathema to them does not bear even passing scrutiny!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The idea that Toscanini, Weingartner, Beecham et al would have tolerated such a practice if it were anathema to them does not bear even passing scrutiny!

Toscanini's first recordings date from 1920, Weingartner's from 1923 - only Beecham recorded as early as 1915, five years after the first orchestral recording, which is the period I thought we were talking about.

[Lento]

I was intrigued by the horn playing near the start of the Brahms 2nd mvt (cuivré?): also, there was an unexpected (for me) marked crescendo in the last mvt solo horn tune. Not being familiar with HIP performances of this work, I can't comment further. Btw, does the "slowest 2nd mvt prize" go to Barenboim/Chicago (1st up on Apple Music)?! I suspect it probably doesn't, but, all the same ....

[Maclintick]

I was intrigued by the horn playing near the start of the Brahms 2nd mvt (cuivré?): also, there was an unexpected (for me) marked crescendo in the last mvt solo horn tune. Not being familiar with HIP performances of this work, I can't comment further.

I can't claim any HIPP credentials either, Lento, but the horn D# (gestopft = muted) with <> in bar 3 of movt. 2 was one of many details of Brahms's scoring which registered anew in last night's performance, & as you point out, there are similar markings <f> in that famous last movt horn solo, repeated in the succeeding flute passage. Perhaps these are ignored in many performances..

[jayne lee wilson]

Surprised to see so little reaction or enthusiasm for the actual performances here...? (not to mention the poignancy of the event)...
.... still at least two other reviewers were as excited about it as I was (and for broadly similar reasons)....
Nice pictures of the layout for the concerto too.

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=13830

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/what-to-listen-to/bbc-proms-2016-reviews-of-the-best-proms-so-far/

[BBMmk2]

Surprised to see so little reaction or enthusiasm for the actual performances here...? (not to mention the poignancy of the event)...
.... still at least two other reviewers were as excited about it as I was (and for broadly similar reasons)....

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=13830

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/wha...-proms-so-far/

I have, JLW! I found it quite a poignant evening. The leader of the orchestra was quite emotional and brave as well to make her speech about the orchestra's situation. I am glad they chose to make the proms their final concert under their Der Feurer, as they so fondly called Sir Roger

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Surprised to see so little reaction or enthusiasm for the actual performances here...? (not to mention the poignancy of the event)...
.... still at least two other reviewers were as excited about it as I was (and for broadly similar reasons)....
Nice pictures of the layout for the concerto too.

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=13830

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/wha...-proms-so-far/

No need to provide other reviews, Jayne. Yours are always the best.

[Lento]

I can't claim any HIPP credentials either, Lento, but the horn D# (gestopft = muted) with <> in bar 3 of movt. 2 was one of many details of Brahms's scoring which registered anew in last night's performance, & as you point out, there are similar markings <f> in that famous last movt horn solo, repeated in the succeeding flute passage. Perhaps these are ignored in many performances..

As you say, it's all in the score!

[jayne lee wilson]

The latest CD I bought, coincidental to this Prom, was the new KAIROS release of Friedrich Cerha's most recent works, which includes the SWR Baden-Baden und Freiburg's 2014 performance with Emilio Pomarico of the gorgeous, glitteringly atmospheric Nacht of 2012-13. I realised that it was the Baden-Baden & Freiburg band who recorded the complete, monumental Spiegel orchestral cycle by Cerha too, released in 2010, and which I'm playing night-by-night as a kind of "homage & valediction". Scanning the shelves reveals other discs of music by Nono, Feldman, Wolfgang Rihm....I must have first encountered the B-B & F on the Radio 3 EBU concerts which often went out live on Monday nights. It's a rich and dedicated tradition of new music performance which is documented also in the Donaueschingen-Musiktage series, still available. But they've also done an excellent Ballet-Russes series with various conductors, a lovely Poulenc album and Richard Strauss series with Xavier-Roth... it's some catalogue!

My first SWR Stuttgart CD was probably the Sanderling Bruckner 7, but it was the astounding series they did with Norrington which put them a on an altogether higher level - the Beethoven, Bruckner, Schubert and Haydn London Cycles seem to me as fine as any other, and in exceptional recorded sound. In a world awash with reissues, re-re-issues, huge boxsets of endlessly recycled Great Conductors of the 1950s - 1970s, it's a great achievement to record such familiar masterworks and make it new almost every time.
Even where you can't go with all that Norrington does, your attention is compelled, not least by the wonderful orchestral playing... no wonder, as their leader said in her post-Prom speech, they love him so much.

So I hope, passionately, that both these classic German Radio traditions - of contemporary, and of recreatively refreshed Classical performance, can somehow continue with the SWR as these two orchestras become one. I don't know what the Phoenix of the SWR will call itself now, but they'll certainly need a skilled and gifted administrator...

[Beef Oven!]

I wasn’t interested in the Berlioz overture, but was blown away! I couldn’t believe how well the orchestra sounded, especially the strings. A great start.

Slightly disappointed by the pc, largely because for some reason the piano didn’t sound very clear to me half-way back in the arena. I wondered how Robert Levin would react to the audience’s applause at the end of the first movement and was pleased when he turned around with a huge smile, bowed and made one fist of his two hands and brought it to and from his chest in the time-honoured gesture of appreciation! I dont know what his encore was, but I think it might have been a Schumann piece, judging by the number of notes!

Sir Roger was unstoppable in his view of this symphony! This performance has converted this Brahms convert to this symphony! A meteoric first movement and as for the second movement, I can’t believe I’ll ever hear it performed that well ever again. The strings OMG! To say nothing of the woods and Brass!

I wondered how Sir Roger would respond to the applause after the second movement. He swivelled around in his chair and faced the audience with a huge grin and started ‘clapping’ back to us with his baton and left hand! He was at his chimpiest best!

The Brahms Hungarian Dance encore was hilarious and the first notes drew big laughs in the arena and Sir Roger swivelled around intermittently with hilarious body language and facial expressions!

Emotionally charged speech from the leader at the end and a poignant Nimrod.

This might turn out to be my favourite Prom of 2016.


(excuse the poor quality photo!)

[Pulcinella]

This might turn out to be my favourite Prom of 2016.

Always interesting to read the reactions of others, jlw in particular, but sadly here in Casa Pulcinella we both loathed this Prom, though the concerto and symphony are works we both like and listen to a lot.
We thought the concerto monochrome and wooden, even thumpily played, with no subtlety, and I didn't get any of the tingle factor that I usually get in the symphony (though I'm happy to accept that markings in the score were followed scrupulously).
We both said that if that had been the first time we had heard these pieces we were not sure that we would have wanted to hear them again.
But therein lies the problem: we have heard them before, and we have got used to hearing them performed the way we like.
So, not averse to hearing them done 'differently', and in many senses this is a special feature of the Proms, but on this occasion I'm prepared to stick my neck out on the forum and say that these performances simply did not appeal.

[Bryn]

I have listened to this performance of the 4th Piano Concerto several times now. It will definitely be transfering to CD-R to complement Levin's survey of the concertos (including two of the 4th) with the OReR and JEG. I hear more each time I listen. I find myself wondering how many of the textual diversions are Levin's and how many Beethoven's later revisions (as presented in Barry Cooper's edition of the revised concerto). I don't know the latter well enough yet to be sure. As to subtleties, for one thing I thought the arpeggiation, and phrasing thereof, of the chords in response to the orchestral 'furies' in the second movement, most affecting.

Oh, and as to 'wooden', Levin is, of course, used to playing on insturments with much more wood in their construction. Not that I am suggesting this performance was somehow 'cast iron'.

[Pulcinella]

Oh, and as to 'wooden', Levin is, of course, used to playing on insturments with much more wood in their construction. Not that I am suggesting this performance was somehow 'cast iron'.

Fair comment, and a nice gentle riposte.

Glad you enjoyed it, Bryn.

[LeMartinPecheur]

For what it's worth, the solo cello at about 3 minutes in, on this 1924 acoustic 78 of Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto with Stokowski and his Philadelphians (not to be confused with their 1929 electrical remake) is definitely playing with vibrato. Not that it proves anything either way, as they may have been doing things differently in the States! ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKFl2mg8bVg

But aren't Stokowski and his 20s Philadlephians often directly named as introducers, or at least very early practitioners, of the "new" continuous vibrato, as a way of creating the super-rich, saturated string tone on which their fame was based?

[gradus]

I heard the concert repeat today and found it all rather moving especially the touching speech by the orchestra's leader. Not being an enthusiast for Sir Roger's work I admit to thoroughly enjoying the Brahms performance which was splendid in all respects. Good fortune to all the musicians of the orchestra in their future careers.