Prom 5: 19.07.16 - Beethoven: Missa Solemnis

[Prommer]

Thank you Ferney.

Will listen ASAP.

The LBV9 comment is daft because not all of us (any of us?) really associate it with the European Union, whatever our views on Britain's membership. But I fear I haven't been following the Brexit threads...!

[edashtav]

I agree with Ferney, this performance soon settled to become a fine reading, full of forward thrust, colour, good choral singing complemented by a great set of soloists. I loved the "layers" in the orchestra, the strings getting on with business, brass and timps displaying war and disruption, whilst through the smoke the wind band on high were heaven's mellifluous chorus. That Noseda knows the score inside out and loves every note was everywhere apparent. Another triumph for the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra.

For this listener, the best performance so far in this Proms Season.

[Petrushka]

Difficult to gear myself up for a 6.30 start time having dashed home from work on this very hot evening and just about making it. Noseda wouldn't have been the only one in a lather of sweat this evening! Evening meal had to wait. Once settled, I soon forgot all other considerations and agree with Ferney and edashtav on the qualities of this fine performance. Coming soon after their quite outstanding Mahler 2 under Sinaisky, the BBC Phil are riding very high indeed at the moment.

The Missa Solemnis is one of my 'signature' works ever since I was present at the unforgettable 1982 LPO/Solti Prom performance.

Is this the first evening Prom to have ended before 8pm?

[jayne lee wilson]

Unable to devote my best attention to this, but through the Kyrie and Gloria at least I noted: nicely flowing tempi (quite a lick for the Gloria itself though!) , buoyant rhythms, and clear textures though orchestra & chorus (despite the size of the latter). With a degree of expressive restraint, Noseda commanded a fine balance of the dramatic with the devotional, although I wondered whether this impression was partly due to the audio perspective via HDs 320, which was set well back with a natural perspective on chorus, soloists & orchestra - no artificial highlighting of any of the vocal quartet. The downside to this was a lack of sheer presence and definition - so whilst wind solos were clear within the orchestra, I didn't get much sense of their individuality (you could argue this is apt to the work, given the often accompanistic, subdued orchestral role). Given the relatively distant perspective, dynamics too were a bit unsubtle - a louder level or two, a quieter one, and not much in between. Focussing on the performance again through the Agnus Dei and Dona Nobis, these qualities at least appeared consistent.

So - a reading mit andacht which faithfully served the music, in a webcast which was natural and well-balanced, but a little soft and rounded tonally - lacking some immediacy, sharpness and micro-dynamic life. A quick spot-check with FM revealed a little more freshness & presence (not often the case in this system) albeit at the expense of dynamic range.

***

But I'm a little spoilt for the Missa by the recent issue of the extraordinary last testament of Nikolaus Harnoncourt's final recording, which he regarded to some extent as his personal legacy. As Richard Osborne says in the August Gramophone "Where many of the Mass's most praised interpreters treat it as a species of music drama, the god Dionysus never far distant, Harnoncourt's has an atmosphere you might more normally expect to encounter when listening to a piece such as the Fauré Requiem. His aim was "to develop the work from silence" and "keep the usual frenzied sonorities within bounds". A search for inner and outer peace - the aspiration Beethoven writes above the opening bars of the Dona Nobis Pacem - is the performance's ultimate goal."
In the fascinating notes to the recording Harnoncourt says that the Dona Nobis Pacem "begs the question of whether peace can exist at all" - terribly true of the world we find ourselves in today.

If you don't yet know this latest Missa Solemnis - VCM and Schoenberg Choir, in wonderful sound from Harnoncourt's beloved Stephianensaal, and moderately paced at 81' (my personally-favoured Gardiner readings are 71'39 and 70' respectively) - it deserves your urgent attention!

http://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/beethoven-missa-solemnis-op-123-nikolaus-harnoncourt-concentus-musicus-wien/0886445763072?qref=dac_7

[Maclintick]

The LBV9 comment is daft because not all of us (any of us?) really associate it with the European Union, whatever our views on Britain's membership. But I fear I haven't been following the Brexit threads...!

The member states of the EU (at that time the EC if we're being pedantic) chose to associate themselves with LVB9 in 1972 when the Council of Ministers officially adopted the finale's main theme as the Euro Anthem, expressing what they hoped were European ideals. Then there was Lennie's historic 1989 Christmas Day Freedom Concert in Berlin. Such associations linger. I envy anyone who could now sit through "Nessun Dorma" without images of Gazza, Lineker et al popping into their brain...

[Bryn]

... I envy anyone who could now sit through "Nessun Dorma" without images of Gazza, Lineker et al popping into their brain ...

I know where Gaza is, but where are these Gazza and Lineker you refer to? Is the latter an airport perchance?

[Sir Velo]

I know where Gaza is, but where are these Gazza and Lineker you refer to? Is the latter an airport perchance?

How does that old line go? "Legless with Gazza at The Mill in Staines" ?

[PhilipT]

I know where Gaza is, but where are these Gazza and Lineker you refer to? Is the latter an airport perchance?

Beats me. Presumably Gazza is short for "La gazza ladra", but Lineker is a mystery.

[underthecountertenor]

Beats me. Presumably Gazza is short for "La gazza ladra", but Lineker is a mystery.

It was Sir Jeremiah Harman who, in a case concerning an unauthorised biography of Paul Gascoigne called 'Gazza', remarked that there was an 'operetta' called La Gazza Ladra, which he went on to translate as 'The Sicilian Ladder', thereby confusing at least three different operas.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

It was Sir Jeremiah Harman who, in a case concerning an unauthorised biography of Paul Gascoigne called 'Gazza', remarked that there was an 'operetta' called La Gazza Ladra, which he went on to translate as 'The Sicilian Ladder', thereby confusing at least three different operas.

Somebody should have torn him off a strip.

[Prommer]

The member states of the EU (at that time the EC if we're being pedantic) chose to associate themselves with LVB9 in 1972 when the Council of Ministers officially adopted the finale's main theme as the Euro Anthem, expressing what they hoped were European ideals. Then there was Lennie's historic 1989 Christmas Day Freedom Concert in Berlin. Such associations linger. I envy anyone who could now sit through "Nessun Dorma" without images of Gazza, Lineker et al popping into their brain...

The Council of Ministers can opine that the moon is made of cheese, but it don't make it so. All sort of organisations have tried to appropriate music for their own ends.

I associate the Choral Symphony with many things: Beethoven, Schiller through the Ode to Joy... And freedom (along with Fidelio).

Hitler tried to appropriate the symphony (witness the party performances, especially the one conducted by Furtwangler in 1942) as did Wagner, for the laying of the foundation stone ceremony at Bayreuth, where he conducted it. (Indeed, it remains the only musical work not by Wagner that is occasionally allowed on the Green Hill.)

But I still don't 'associate' the work with Hitler, or Wagner, or the EU, just because they have claimed it for themselves. It is the very reverse of claimable in that sense. It is against being 'claimed' by an ideology, still less a state or group of states.

[gurnemanz]

I associate the Choral Symphony with many things: Beethoven, Schiller through the Ode to Joy... And freedom (along with Fidelio).

It is against being 'claimed' by an ideology, still less a state or group of states.

The poem is not about freedom (clue in the title). The word "frei" does not appear in the poem. Bernstein at the Berlin Wall added Freiheit to the text to suit the liberation of the East Germans from political oppression.

I always assumed they chose this piece of music because it expressed the European yearning for joy and brotherhood after decades of suffering and conflict.

[Maclintick]

But I still don't 'associate' the work with Hitler, or Wagner, or the EU, just because they have claimed it for themselves. It is the very reverse of claimable in that sense. It is against being 'claimed' by an ideology, still less a state or group of states.

Just because you personally don't associate LVB9 with any of these things does not negate the existence of such associations, & the Council of Ministers weren't advancing anything resembling a palpably untrue proposition such as "The Moon is made of cheese" when they adopted it as the Euro Anthem. Whether one approves of any piece of music being "claimed" or "hijacked" or even "conscripted" into the service of an ideology or political entity is a completely different matter, & not really the point here. I was responding to your original assertion that "not all of us (any of us?) really associate it with the European Union" which is obviously questionable, if not demonstrably false -- & who are "us" here, anyway ?

To return to the thread topic, I'm not the most fervent admirer of LVB9 -- & positively hostile when the tenor & percussion get going -- but enjoyed Noseda & the BBC Phil/Halle/Manchester Chamber Choir's performance of the great "Missa Solemnis" last night.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Side drum"???

[underthecountertenor]

Somebody should have torn him off a strip.

The Court of Appeal did, eventually, for other reasons. The 'kicking judge' got a bit of a kicking himself (rather unfairly, I think).

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/few-regrets-over-departure-of-harman-the-horrible-1144562.html