The Proms as a festival

[teamsaint]

Just by way of idle Friday night curiosity, I thought I would have back at a couple of weeks listings from an earlier year. Pretty much at random,, I picked the first three weeks in August 1967.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/exc6q9

August 1.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Don Giovanni

August 2.
Johann Sebastian Bach
Brandenburg Concerto No. 4 in G major, BWV 1049
Toccata and Fugue in F major, BWV 540
Proms premiere of complete work
Krzysztof Penderecki
St Luke Passion
Proms premiere

August 3
Benjamin Britten
Les illuminations
William Walton
Cello Concerto
Gustav Holst
The Planets

August 4.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Oboe Concerto in C major, K314
Claudio Monteverdi
Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria (realised Raymond Leppard)
Final Duet 'Creder ciò che desio' Proms premiere
Orfeo
Orfeo's Aria 'Va ricorda o bosch'ombrosi' Act 2 Proms premiere
Messenger scene 'Ahi! caso acerbo...In un fiorito prato' Act 2 Proms premiere
Arianna
Lamento d'Arianna 'Lasciatemi morire' Proms premiere
L' incoronazione di Poppea
Coronation Scene 'A te, sovrana augusta' Act 3 Scene 8
Love Duet 'Pur ti miro' Act 3 Scene 8
George Frideric Handel
Saul, HWV 53
Act 3 Proms premiere

August 5.
Bedrich Smetana
The Bartered Bride
Overture
Alexander Borodin
Prince Igor
Aria 'No sleep, no rest' Act 2
Antonin Dvorak
Symphony No 8 in G major
Georges Bizet
Jeux d'enfants (orchestral version)
Sergei Rachmaninov
Piano Concerto No 3 in D minor
Paul Dukas
The Sorcerer's Apprentice

look through the next two weeks, and so it goes on.

The only things that stand out ( over 3 weeks) as being items that one might not hear now at a regular Prom is Robert Simpson Symphony 3, and Lutyens' " And Suddenly it's evening".

Not saying things weren't better, more adventurous, whatever, just having a curious look.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

look through the next two weeks, and so it goes on.

The only things that stand out ( over 3 weeks) as being items that one might not hear now at a regular Prom is Robert Simpson Symphony 3, and Lutyens' " And Suddenly it's evening".

Not saying things weren't better, more adventurous, whatever, just having a curious look.

BUT the Penderecki and the Monteverdi were not "regular Prom" or concert material THEN, in 1967. Just "at random", you've managed to find two concerts out of the five that you quote that demonstrate a "more adventurous" attitude towards programming than we have been offered in recent years.

[teamsaint]

BUT the Penderecki and the Monteverdi were not "regular Prom" or concert material THEN, in 1967. Just "at random", you've managed to find two concerts out of the five that you quote that demonstrate a "more adventurous" attitude towards programming than we have been offered in recent years.

Well maybe. Its just a discussion point, really.

Poppea had its Proms premiere in 1963.So that was adventurous perhaps, and maybe a chunk four years later less so.

Looking at the history of scheduling for Penderecki, some people might interpret the programming of St Luke ( and Stabat Mater 2 years earlier) as the start of a 20 year fad, that has rather passed now. Not saying it is, of course.....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But just "at random", you lighted upon a significant work (70mins +) by a composer in his thirties from central/eastern Europe. Where is the equivalent of this in the last five (or even ten) years of the Proms?

It's irrelevant how "some people might interpret" the significance or quality of Penderecki's work (although the fact that the SLP is still so regularly performed would suggest that it's much longer than a "20-year fad") - the point is that at random, you've demonstrated what I and others have been suggesting: that the adventurousness of the Proms of fifty (and forty and thirty) years ago was greater than it is currently.

[teamsaint]

But just "at random", you lighted upon a significant work (70mins +) by a composer in his thirties from central/eastern Europe. Where is the equivalent of this in the last five (or even ten) years of the Proms?

It's irrelevant how "some people might interpret" the significance or quality of Penderecki's work (although the fact that the SLP is still so regularly performed would suggest that it's much longer than a "20-year fad") - the point is that at random, you've demonstrated what I and others have been suggesting: that the adventurousness of the Proms of fifty (and forty and thirty) years ago was greater than it is currently.

But look through the three weeks schedules and it yes, it does look somewhat more interesting and adventurous,( which I would have expected) perhaps, but I wouldn't put it more strongly than that.

The Monteverdi thing is interesting. There was a great deal being performed at the Proms around that time.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

AND - none of the Monteverdi items was available on recording in 1967, nor was it regularly performed: the Proms was the only opportunity to hear those pieces performed Live for the majority of listeners.

The ethos at that time - and for about a quarter-century after - was that the Proms both provided excellent performances of the core repertoire, but also helped create a repertoire; expanding that core, and thereby revitalizing it. That revitalizing spirit is what has been lost; the core is being treated as museum work, not a part of a vivid, living culture.

[teamsaint]

AND - none of the Monteverdi items was available on recording in 1967, nor was it regularly performed: the Proms was the only opportunity to hear those pieces performed Live for the majority of listeners.

The ethos at that time - and for about a quarter-century after - was that the Proms both provided excellent performances of the core repertoire, but also helped create a repertoire; expanding that core, and thereby revitalizing it. That revitalizing spirit is what has been lost; the core is being treated as museum work, not a part of a vivid, living culture.

Which is sadly all too true of many of our other major music establishments,too much of the time, many of which also receive , or have the benefit of public subsidy, and which don't seem to come in for the flak that the Proms does.

Some of the stuff that goes on around the main Proms does represent a living culture,EG the World Routes Prom from a couple of years ago, which I was at, and felt very vivid indeed.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But look through the three weeks schedules and it yes, it does look more interesting and adventurous,( which I would have expected). I'd call it "somewhat more interesting and adventurous", perhaps.

I'm not following you here, ts - why the "but"? (You seem to be agreeing with my points - "yes, it does look more interesting and adventurous" - whilst having reservations about them - "'somewhat more interesting and adventurous', perhaps."?)

The Monteverdi thing is interesting. There was a great deal being performed at the Proms around that time.

Yes - the realization that Monteverdi was a great composer whom everyone should hear (rather than just for Baroque specialists/enthusiasts) was something that the Proms was quick to promote.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Which is sadly all too true of many of our other major music establishments,too much of the time, many of which also receive , or have the benefit of public subsidy.

[teamsaint]

I

I'm not following you here, ts - why the "but"? (You seem to be agreeing with my points - "yes, it does look more interesting and adventurous" - whilst having reservations about them - "'somewhat more interesting and adventurous', perhaps."?)


Yes - the realization that Monteverdi was a great composer whom everyone should hear (rather than just for Baroque specialists/enthusiasts) was something that the Proms was quick to promote.

Yes, I do agree with you. i expected to find more adventurous programming in 1967. I just didn't expect to find it enormously more so. And that is what I ( think I )found. But often we do find what we look for.

( I would be very happy indeed to hear Simpson and Lutyens this year ANYWHERE .)

[teamsaint]

Yes - the realization that Monteverdi was a great composer whom everyone should hear (rather than just for Baroque specialists/enthusiasts) was something that the Proms was quick to promote.

Are you aware of who in particular was promoting Monteverdi at the Proms at that time ? Great credit to whoever they were.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Are you aware of who in particular was promoting Monteverdi at the Proms at that time ? Great credit to whoever they were.

I don't know if he was the sole originator, but Glock (the Controller of the Proms at the time) was as keen on Early Music as he was on New.

[Pulcinella]

Are you aware of who in particular was promoting Monteverdi at the Proms at that time ? Great credit to whoever they were.

Leppard?

[teamsaint]

I don't know if he was the sole originator, but Glock (the Controller of the Proms at the time) was as keen on Early Music as he was on New.

John Pritchard was heavily involved. he conducted both the Vespers in 1967, and Poppea in 1963.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Leppard?

Yes - his editions of Monteverdi appeared at Glyndebourne around the same time.