The Proms as a festival

[Richard Barrett]

Where did you find these figures by the way?

which rather confirms my suspicion ( EG Henry Cowell 1 performance ever) that British composers fare much better than Americans.

I think that one thing the figures show is that middle-of-the-road British composers probably fare better than any other contemporary composers, of any nationality. I find the C Matthews total a bit shocking to be honest. If I were an innocent potential member of the Proms' new audiences I think I'd be seriously put off by all that "classical music without the tunes".

[teamsaint]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/composers/by/a-z

[Richard Barrett]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/composers/by/a-z

Aha, thanks. (I guess I could have found that for myself but I was looking for such a thing a couple of years ago and I don't think it existed then.)

[teamsaint]

.

Aha, thanks. (I guess I could have found that for myself but I was looking for such a thing a couple of years ago and I don't think it existed then.)

I think it was new a couple of years ago.
Very useful, and informative.
And usually right......

[Flosshilde]

So far it's the same old arguments about what should & should not be included in the Proms (plus a diversion into IQ tests), and not much discussion about the Proms as a festival, which must surely start with some idea of what a 'festival' is - should there be some sort of over-arching theme or idea (or several), or is it simply a number of concerts that happen in the same place (which the Proms doesn't, unless you count London as being the place)?

[french frank]

is it simply a number of concerts that happen in the same place (which the Proms doesn't, unless you count London as being the place)?

I don't think it's more than that. And 'one place' doesn't have to be in a single venue, but in venues close enough together to be 'one place' geographically. Most festivals happen at regular intervals - annual, biennial, triennial.

But I suspect most regular festivals have one 'director' (not sure about pop festivals) and each director will impose a particular vision of what it should emphasise each year. But somewhere there must be precedents as to what the festival is 'for', what it 'does' and is expected to do, if only tradition. As far as the Proms go, we don't seem to have had a definition since Newman's day, and even that seems open to a range of interpretations:

"I am going to run nightly concerts and train the public by easy stages. Popular at first, gradually raising the standard until I have created a public for classical and modern music."

Would modern music have included contemporary pop music? Hardly, since there's no need to 'create an audience' for what is already popular. What about Holst's Planets? Do you need to 'create an audience' for that? Depends how big you want your audience to be.

I think the definite move towards Starter and Family Proms is a good one and is exactly what Newman would have had in mind. If that means The Planets and Bruch's VC 1, so be it. But I would agree (if anyone else has suggested it ) that Starter and Family don't have to have the Classic FM repertoire. Or do they? What is it about the Planets? And the big works with the big tunes?

[Flosshilde]

The problem with Newman's aim is that it seems to assume a finite audience, or public, which will eventually be trained. Whereas, of course, the public is infinite - there are always new members coming along (& old ones disappearing) who need to be trained. So you can't start off a new festival with popular music first, & then gradually introduce more complex works (or 'raise the standard') until the job is done.

Would he have included the equivelant of pop music? He does seem to have considered popular music to be seperate from classical and modern, so perhaps he would. And music we now consider popular classical might at the time of their first performance have been considered rather avant-garde & difficult (much of Beethoven's was, and even Mozart).

But isn't this aagin off topic? I don't think that the Proms can be considered a festival any more than the concerts at the Royal Festival Hall can be.

[Dave2002]

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Aha, thanks. (I guess I could have found that for myself but I was looking for such a thing a couple of years ago and I don't think it existed then.)

Very interesting. I looked to see what works by Glazunov had been performed, and discovered that only two symphonies have ever been performed - the Fifth in 1897, and the Sixth, but that several times, the last time being in 1919 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/co...2427495e/works

At least the violin concerto still gets performed, with one performance this century.

Main Composer links page - http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/composers/by/a-z

Korngold's violin concerto has been performed twice this century.

Goldmark's violin concerto has never been performed. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8sXXpTwU8A
However, his first symphony was performed in 1907 - its first peformance.

A very interesting/potentially useful resouce that Composer links page. Are there other pages, for example, for performers?

Of course there are - for example a bit of imagination discovers - Performers - http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/performers/by/a-z

John Ogdon performed at 21 Proms - http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/pe...f/performances

Fritz Kreisler never appeared, while Jascha Heifetz manages to be listed twice - but posthumously as an arranger - http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/pe...0/performances

So far I have not found a list of pieces by genre - e.g a list of all the Symphonies, or all the Piano Concertos.

[greenilex]

I think the best festivals demonstrate a strong identity, whether of directorial choice or theme or performance setting.

[PhilipT]

I don't think that the Proms can be considered a festival any more than the concerts at the Royal Festival Hall can be.

So what does, say, the Edinburgh Festival have the Proms doesn't?

[Flosshilde]

In the recent past it's had very specific themes which most of the events (especially theatre) have covered. As Greenilex suggests, it has a very strong identity, and taking place in a small city it has a concentrated feel - it takes over the whole city centre. Add the Fringe to that and the city becomes the Festival. I don't think you can say that about London and the Proms.

[teamsaint]

given the enormous diversity of things that are called and accepted as festivals, I would say that the Proms fit well withing the usual bounds of the word.

Some features of festivals that the Proms has:

a limited time frame.
An audience experience unique to the event.
Some unifying programming.
Strong rosters of performers.

[PhilipT]

In the recent past it's had very specific themes which most of the events (especially theatre) have covered. As Greenilex suggests, it has a very strong identity, and taking place in a small city it has a concentrated feel - it takes over the whole city centre. Add the Fringe to that and the city becomes the Festival. I don't think you can say that about London and the Proms.

So what you're saying is: The Proms is a brand known all over the world [you won't deny that, will you?], but it doesn't have a strong identity; and whether or not something is a festival depends on its context. I hope you understand my inability to follow your line of thought.

I'm with teamsaint's #27, though I would add "The provision of 'add-on' events (talks, workshops etc.) intended to enhance the audience's understanding and appreciation of the works", and "The ability to attract a loyal audience that will go to works or productions outside their experience and their comfort zones solely because they have been programmed".

[Flosshilde]

Perhaps it's because my (& most other people's) experience of the Proms is simply the evening broadcast on R3 - there doesn't seem to be anything to distinguish it from the rest of the year. Whereas when I go to Edinburgh for a concert (or theatre, or any other event) during the Festival I get an immediate buzz from the number of people, the street events, & the general atmosphere, that says that something special is happening, even before I get to the venue. When I lived in London & could Prom (that is, when I could take an afternoon off work) there was a sense of engaging in something a bit special when I was in the actual queue, but not while going there. Unlike, say, a Gay Pride march when I would see others on the underground & converging on the starting point - a sense of something building, & a sense of excitement.

[greenilex]

Perhaps the difficulty is with London, which after all remains a special case...perhaps the music should demonstrate its London connection more consistently?