Your wishes for 2016 (Music-related suggestions only please)

[Ferretfancy]

To some extent I do concur. But unjustly neglected composers are not necessarily unjustly neglected. The examples mentioned here are British (even English here). On the continent we hardly see Elgar or Vaughan Williams or any of the other in our opinion great British composers performed. Hence we must take into consideration that many continental (or for that matter: American, Russian) great composers remain under the radar on our isles.
We only have to recall suffolkcoastal's symphonic journey to illustrate what I mean here (Vermeulen, Diamond, Schuman, Hindemith, Hartmann, Henze, Pettersson, Koppel, Badings, Honegger, Schnittke, Weinberg, to mention a couple of 20C symphonic composers who are most definitely first rate, but so far hardly heard in Britain), and only quite recently names of Martinu, Nielsen, Szymanowski, Roussel and Magnard have emerged, following the Mahler fashion which also really started in the late 1970s.

Of course this extends to all types of (classical) music: as an alternative for DSCH's 15 quartets we could have a go at Holmboe's, e.g.

I'd love that approach; that approach was used already by Mengelberg at the helm of the Concertgebouw Orchestra introducing Mahler's works, e.g. a concert with Symphony 4 before the interval, and symphony 4 immediately following the interval.

I absolutely agree that there are composers of stature whose work is still neglected here, and you have given a fascinating list of names. I would be delighted to see them much better represented in concert programmes and not only at the Proms. Of course there will always be the issue of personal likes and dislikes, but I do feel that there is an awful lot of second rate stuff which is championed by some, but is understandably not heard very often.

Incidentally I was fascinated to hear the recent CD release of RVW symphonies recorded in Russia by Rozhdestvensky, admittedly they were recorded some years ago, but they were well received by the live audience in Moscow.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I've just done a little survey going back to 1985 of all symphonies/sinfoniettas/sinfonias performed at the Proms. Totals in descending order, I'll put the actual totals per symphony up later.

BEETHOVEN 142
MAHLER 112
SHOSTAKOVICH 93
SIBELIUS 74
MOZART 68
BRUCKNER 62
TCHAIKOVSKY 62
BRAHMS 58
HAYDN 54
SCHUBERT 44
DVORAK 41
VAUGHAN WILLIAMS 35
PROKOFIEV 34
BERLIOZ 32
ELGAR 26
MENDELSSOHN 24
RACHMANINOV 21
SCHUMANN 21
NIELSEN 20
BRITTEN 18
STRAVINSKY 18
R STRAUSS 12
JANACEK 11
DAVIES 10
WALTON 10
IVES 9
SAINT-SAENS 9
SCRIABIN 9
MESSIAEN 8
COPLAND 7
LUTOSLAWSKI 7
HENZE 6
HINDEMITH 6
SCHOENBERG 5
TIPPETT 5
LISZT 4
SZYMANOWSKI 4
BERNSTEIN 3
FRANCK 3
KNUSSEN 3
ROUSSEL 3
BERIO 2
BLISS 2
P GLASS 2
GORECKI 2
HARTMANN K A 2
HONEGGER 2
MACMILLAN 2
MARTINU 2
MATTHEWS D 2
MOERAN 2
NORGARD 2
PANUFNIK 2
PART 2
SCHMIDT F 2
ADAMS J 1
AHO 1
ALWYN 1
ARNE 1
ARNOLD 1
BACH CPE 2
BANTOCK 1
BAX 1
BIZET 1
BOCCHERINI 1
BORODIN 1
BOYCE 1
BRIAN 1
CASKEN 1
CHAUSSON 1
DUTILLEUX 1
EISLER 1
GLANERT 1
GLIERE 1
GOEHR A 1
HARRIS Roy 1
HOLLOWAY 1
HOLST 1
KANCHELI 1
KEAL M 1
KRAUS J M 1
LILBURN 1
LLOYD J 1
NASH P P 1
PARRY 1
PENDERECKI 1
PISTON 1
POWERS A 1
RUBBRA 1
RUDERS 1
W SCHUMAN 1
SIMPSON 1
STENHAMMAR 1
SUK 1
VASKS 1
YIU R 1
ZEMLINSKY 1

[Serial_Apologist]

An astonishing piece of work, SC, for which many many thanks indeed! You must have an amazing indexing system!

(Only one Brian symphony in 30 years - The Gothic, of course)

[EdgeleyRob]

Many thanks from me too SC.
Rubbra,Bax and Simpson = only 1 is a disgrace

[Suffolkcoastal]

Thanks SA, no special index system just spreadsheets. Some surprises; the Bizet Symphony in C only once in the 80s, Sibelius 4 only performed 3 times, hardly any 'classical' symphonies outside of Haydn & Mozart, no Dvorak symphonies lower than No 5 (and that symphony only once). I'll put the details up tomorrow.

[Tevot]

Thanks SA, no special index system just spreadsheets. Some surprises; the Bizet Symphony in C only once in the 80s, Sibelius 4 only performed 3 times, hardly any 'classical' symphonies outside of Haydn & Mozart, no Dvorak symphonies lower than No 5 (and that symphony only once). I'll put the details up tomorrow.

Hello there,


Many thanks for this SC. A quick look at the Proms archive reveals just one performance of a Schnittke symphony (his second) back in 1980. The Sibelius 4 stat post 1985 is indeed a surprise - and striking that his Spring Song Op. 16 appears never to have been performed at the Proms. Also the Andante Festivo appears to have been performed only once at the Proms too...

And as for Nielsen - very few performances of his 2nd, 3rd and 6th symphonies - with N0 1 only getting one outing. His 4th and 5th symphonies fare better - but still underperformed imho...

Fascinating stuff.

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[P. G. Tipps]

Some surprises there. No surprise with the top two but I have to admit Bruckner does surprisingly well for me, especially when total ignorance has played a part some Proms seasons.

Ever-so-slightly misleading as an "ubiquity" guide, though, as I'm sure Herr Brahms (and of course Wolfgang) would do much, much better if German Requiems, Alto Rhapsodies, Concerti etc etc were included, but in that case the incomparable Ludwig would be in a deserved league of his own?

The big surprise for me, though, is the inexplicable near non-existence of any Borodin. Back in the Fifties/Sixties his delightful Second Symphony became very popular (no doubt due to a certain American musical shamelessly stealing one of its glorious melodies for a silly song) but the poor chap now seems to have faded into obscurity.

A great shame ... and the punters' loss.

[Tevot]

Hello there

Regarding ubiquity and musical fashion - the real eye opener for me is the fate of Cesar Franck's Symphony in D minor. If you look at the Proms' archive it has featured 43 times over the years - and it is only a slight exaggeration to say that between 1914 and 1959 it practically featured every year !!...

Then come the 1960s and presumably William Glock - and hey presto the Symphony dies a death... only returning three times in the 1980s - and pace SC featuring only 3 times since 1985.

My question - and it is a genuine one - is this. Why have the fortunes of this Symphony changed so dramatically over the years? Was its demise a reaction to overexposure? Or was the personal taste / prejudice of William Glock key to its undoing? Did the piece turn audiences and players off? Was the piece too difficult or expensive to play?

I'd love to hear any thoughts on this - particularly board members who have played the work or have listened to it live in concert.

For the record I love the piece - and I associate it with my first year at University back in 1985...but that's the subject of another thread isn't it ?

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't think that Glock can be blamed for the international fall from favour of the Franck symphony, Tevot; just the vagaries of audience fashion. It can't be expense, though - the Saint-Saens Third (which seems to have supplanted the Franck as the world's most popular "French" Symphony) is more expensive.

As far as my own reaction to it is concerned, it's a work that repays its rarity - not something I often find myself thinking "Oh, I really must listen to the Franck Symphony", but which I quite enjoy when it's programmed in a concert.

[Beef Oven!]

............It can't be expense, though - the Saint-Saens Third (which seems to have supplanted the Franck as the world's most popular "French" Symphony) is more expensive.

French? He was born in the Netherlands, in that well known Belgian town of Liege!

[P. G. Tipps]

Actually #112 is a load of rubbish ... at least the Borodin comments.

It was another lovely B. piece from where the silly song tune was stolen ... Polovtsian Dances from "Prince Igor" of course. Ah well, it was early in the morning, as the convenient excuse goes.

Still, it only further emphasises the point about the strange lack of Borodin these days, I suppose?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

French? He was born in the Netherlands, in that well known Belgian town of Liege!

(that's why I put "French" in thingies - didn't want to upset Hercule Poirot.)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Still, it only further emphasises the point about the strange lack of Borodin these days, I suppose?

Put it this way, Tippy - in the '50s and '60s (before Glock, that is) how often were Bruckner's Symphonies featured in Prom programmes?

The '60s saw a real change in the tastes of the general public - not only did Bruckner and Mahler assume their rightful positions as masters, but there was a huge new interest in pre-Classical Musics. With limited concert time (and these have got shorter since the '60s, too) something has got to be "sacrificed" - for my money, rather Bruckner, Mahler, Monteverdi and/or Dunstable than either Franck or Borodin, much as I enjoy those works.

[kea]

I don't think that Glock can be blamed for the international fall from favour of the Franck symphony, Tevot; just the vagaries of audience fashion. It can't be expense, though - the Saint-Saens Third (which seems to have supplanted the Franck as the world's most popular "French" Symphony) is more expensive.

Richard Taruskin goes into some detail about the Franck symphony in the final chapter of Volume 3 of The Oxford History of Western Music—which I know is somewhat controversial and a bit of a tabloid "history", but his comments were illuminating, discussing the rise of the Music Appreciation™ industry, and how this tied into the popularity of the Franck symphony. I wish I remember what exactly he said, I've got the book somewhere and could look it up probably

[P. G. Tipps]

Put it this way, Tippy - in the '50s and '60s (before Glock, that is) how often were Bruckner's Symphonies featured in Prom programmes?

The '60s saw a real change in the tastes of the general public - not only did Bruckner and Mahler assume their rightful positions as masters, but there was a huge new interest in pre-Classical Musics. With limited concert time (and these have got shorter since the '60s, too) something has got to be "sacrificed" - for my money, rather Bruckner, Mahler, Monteverdi and/or Dunstable than either Franck or Borodin, much as I enjoy those works.

Well I suspect WWII was responsible for the immediate post-war ignorance of Bruckner (and Mahler) in the UK, though Gustav has certainly fared better than Anton ever since their 'discovery' in the Sixties. The latter, I fear, still suffers from no little prejudice about him making the outrageous decision to be born in the same city as Hitler was much later, and his music being venerated accordingly by both the Fuhrer and the Nazis ... stupid chap!!

Rather more seriously I don't think it has to be a case of "either/or". Of course the popularity of the great composers demands their music is heard more often than the others but there still should be a place for the 'Championship' composers as well as the 'Premiership', imv.

Funny the Franck should be mentioned. It's a fine work, but, to me, it tends to sound like a Bruckner symphony with its guts torn out, if you excuse the somewhat extreme expression!