Prom 73: VPO/Bychkov (10.09.15)

[Prommer]

I too hated the coughing and the clapping, but as to the VPO's reaction, who really knows?

From observing as well as hearing yesterday's Gerontius, I suspect they put all of the Proms thing down to some slightly quaint British rite, which they are happy to indulge and just a little bit pleased to have experienced.

People are often liberated from themselves when abroad! Not just the Brits...

[Petrushka]

Does anyone else remember Dr Alfred Altenburger's (then VPO chairman) letter to The Times following the first VPO Prom appearance in 1984? The orchestra was thrilled by the experience and were very moved by the reception they received. Those 1984 concerts under Abbado were wonderful, a far cry from what we had here.

[Darkbloom]

I too hated the coughing and the clapping, but as to the VPO's reaction, who really knows?

From observing as well as hearing yesterday's Gerontius, I suspect they put all of the Proms thing down to some slightly quaint British rite, which they are happy to indulge and just a little bit pleased to have experienced.

People are often liberated from themselves when abroad! Not just the Brits...

I know what you mean. The last time I saw the VPO at the Proms I thought they had a very informal, slightly holiday air about them. I remember being in Kensington Gardens and seeing the concert master stroll past me with his violin case, and several other players I recognised wandered along too in the direction of the artists entrance. Quite a contrast to the brisk efficiency of many orchestras who are bussed in and bussed out in a very professional, if less than relaxed way. I think that often shows through in the performances, which can have a very polished if perfunctory feel about them.

[Conchis]

I seem to be in a minority here, but i absolutely loved the Brahms, but then most of the recordings I have of this work are played by this orchestra: Barbirolli, Bernstein, Kertesz, Abbado, Karajan. Only Furtwangler is played by the Berliners.

A friend of mine once told me about a special concert the BPO gave in the new(it) Coventry Cathedral in the early seventies. Symbolically, Barenboim conducted but the BPO played Karajan's Brahms 4. :)

[Prommer]

On a similar theme, in Munich it is alleged that the Bavarian State Opera Orchestra still plays Fledermaus and Rosenkavalier as they (re-)learnt it from Carlos Kleiber.

[Master Jacques]

Clapping after the first movement is understandable and forgivable in the first-time concertgoer - but to repeat the mistake after every movement played? No.

That depends whether you view it as a "mistake", or a reversion to the norm.

Forgive my reposting this link, but the article is worth revisiting. It seems old Mr Stokes was responsible for this "silent temple" attitude to applause, which is essentially a 20th century aberration rather than the historical norm.

Conchis, your feelings on the matter are your feelings, of course: but they not necessarily prescriptive for everyone else's (especially younger concert-goers).

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/02/applause_a_rest.html

[Darkbloom]

That depends whether you view it as a "mistake", or a reversion to the norm.

Yes, but you could also use that argument to advocate a return to the way people used to 'enjoy' opera, with the lights up full and everyone talking and admiring each other rather than actually listening to the music. Occasionally you hear something in performance that moves the audience enough to burst into spontaneous applause at the end of a movement, but mostly it's awkward smatterings that leave everyone (performers included) a little embarrassed. I don't think there is any point applauding people if they aren't interested in acknowledging that applause - and I am sure most performers would rather use the brief pause to compose themselves again rather than waste their time on pointless bows. There may be a historical precedent for it, but I don't think that's sufficient justification today.

[Conchis]

That depends whether you view it as a "mistake", or a reversion to the norm.

Forgive my reposting this link, but the article is worth revisiting. It seems old Mr Stokes was responsible for this "silent temple" attitude to applause, which is essentially a 20th century aberration rather than the historical norm.

Conchis, your feelings on the matter are your feelings, of course: but they not necessarily prescriptive for everyone else's (especially younger concert-goers).

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/0...se_a_rest.html

Obviously, you're tortured by an insatiable desire to make your point over and over again, though I'll concede you've come up with some interesting information in so doing.

There is a separate thread on applause, which is probably where this discussion now belongs, as we've stopped talking about the concert itself.

[Bryn]

That depends whether you view it as a "mistake", or a reversion to the norm.

Forgive my reposting this link, but the article is worth revisiting. It seems old Mr Stokes was responsible for this "silent temple" attitude to applause, which is essentially a 20th century aberration rather than the historical norm.

Conchis, your feelings on the matter are your feelings, of course: but they not necessarily prescriptive for everyone else's (especially younger concert-goers).

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/0...se_a_rest.html

Thank you for the link to this fine piece of journalism. The final quote hits the nail right on the head for me.

[Darkbloom]

At the risk of straying onto irrelevant subjects like the actual performance, I felt the Brahms was wonderful and am surprised that it has been so dismissively treated. I thought Bychkov gave us a master-class in how to get the best out of a great orchestra - guiding them gently while at the same time giving a little momentum when it was needed. It was certainly relaxed but I never felt at any time that things were in danger of grinding to a halt or running aground on self-indulgence. When you have players who can produce the sort of sounds we heard the other night, then it makes sense to allow them enough space to give their best. There were times when this performance carried me off to a place that I don't think any other orchestra can manage. There isn't only one way to play this music, but, of its kind, this was as good an account as I have heard for a long time.

[pastoralguy]

That being said about the greatest orchestra in the world. I have always felt that it's the Berliner Philharmoniker?

NONSENSE!

The greatest orchestra in the world is the RSNO!

[pastoralguy]

I haven't heard the performance yet but I daresay you are spot on here. I have been to VPO performances (particularly first halves) that have a terrible air of routine about them before picking themselves up, hopefully, after the interval. It must be hard for any conductor, however eminent, to make much of an impression on that weight of collective tradition and you have just to bite the bullet and hope for better things later on.

Well, Mrs. PG and I heard Beethoven 9 in Carnegie Hall a year past February and we felt that there was an air of 'we're the Vienna Philharmonic. What more do you want?!' The conductor was Welser-Most and we felt he was struggling to shake the VPO out of their routine interpretation.

We've never had that with Die Berliner Philharmoniker!!

[Bryn]

Well, Mrs. PG and I heard Beethoven 9 in Carnegie Hall a year past February and we felt that there was an air of 'we're the Vienna Philharmonic. What more do you want?!' The conductor was Welser-Most and we felt he was struggling to shake the VPO out of their routine interpretation. ... !

The Vienna Phil in Dunfermline? Whatever next?

[Prommer]

The real revelation here was the genius of Schmidt: listen again!

[Darkbloom]

That being said about the greatest orchestra in the world. I have always felt that it's the Berliner Philharmoniker?

I never know what 'great' really means when you are talking about top orchestras. When I hear the BPO these days I come away impressed but rarely moved. Somehow the VPO has the ability to soar beyond the mere notes, when they are in the mood. That's why they are peerless in Bruckner, for example, and I thought the much-criticised Brahms showed signs of an identification with the music that even the greatest of the other orchestras can't quite match.