Prom 62: OAE/Brahms (1.09.15)

[EdgeleyRob]

Only heard the symphony.
A bit underwhelming for me.
As with the Schubert 9 the other evening the strings sounded a bit lightweight I thought.
Wonder if this is a sound balancing issue,maybe the same team were on duty.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Wonder if this is a sound balancing issue,maybe the same team were on duty.

If they place the microphones correctly in the first place, there should be little need for tinkering in any of the concerts.

[Sir Velo]

. Worth waiting for

Are you on a diet?

Low cal - Brahms lite.

[verismissimo]

Are you on a diet?

Low cal - Brahms lite.

That's HIP Brahms for you, Sir V. Exciting!

And yes, I'm on a diet, supervised by my 13 yo daughter, who brooks no argument.

[edashtav]

So far, I listened only to the Overture and the Alto Rhapsody. The Academic Festival Overture is Brahms in thoroughly unbuttoned, non-academic mood. Frankly, such confections usually bore me rigid - just one tune after another. The novel soundscape of this interpretation freshened this old warhorse. I read the other day that when Queen Victoria visited Buckingham in the 1840s, the locals were amazed to find that the manes of the horses drawing her carriage had been dyed green - no doubt to honour the Duke of Buckingham & Chandos whose "colour" was Buckingham Green. Jayne touched on the Emperor Brahms's new clothes in post #25. I liked her term "more wind-band than string-drenched" . Fresh sounds and new perspectives tickle our ears and refresh our brains. This was the first time I've enjoyed this overture in a quarter of a century.

The Alto Rhapsody is a favourite piece. The period orchestra's sonorities helped to keep the contralto Jamie Barton at the focal point of textures. I found her singing satisfying rather than memorable - but the problem of having favourites is that, inevitably, newcomers have to face a trial against rose-coloured memories of the best of the rest from one's past.

I intend to listen to the C Minor symphony later today.

[Nick Armstrong]

Low cal

I didn't say a word!


.

[verismissimo]

REFLECTIONS ON PROM 62...

... I still recall their Proms Rheingold with Rattle in 2004...

Me too. But my overwhelming impression was that, while the orchestral musicians had done much research into instruments, performing styles etc, the singers simply showed up and did their usual stuff. Yet for singers, there are plenty of early recordings of performers associated with Wagner.

I had something of the same feeling with Jamie Barton last night. Too much uncontrolled vibrato, not enough portamento...

[edashtav]

Triumphlied has so much that damns it in the eyes of concert promoter in our country: its text in praise of Prussian militarism, its unsung but suggested sub-text ("For he has judged the great prostitute" i.e. Paris and the French), its "Bach-cantata" length, the requirement for an expensive but little-used baritone soloist and its two choir scoring that stretches smaller amateur Choral Societies- especially as the general rejoicing can seem relentless in its "full-on" demands: both of sheer volume and musical complexity. Yet, it's very good Brahms; music demanding more than an occasional performance. The Proms seems an ideal home for such a work.

It sounded grand in the r3 transmission, grander I fear than it may have seemed in the vast RAH. I liked the balance struck between the OAE and its chorus. Triumphlied needs to sound masterful and utterly confident. I did wonder whether some exposed choral entries in its second movement had quite the security and brio that Brahms demands. Did the ladies of the chorus exhibit too much vibrato given the period nature of the accompaniment? Brahms does drive the tenors hard and high and I found their stratospheric passages a little thin and under-nourished in softer passage although they were good in louder moments. I did admire the care that the chorus-master and Marin Alsop had taken to find and shape some reflective moments. I think these forces need a little more time to bed-down their performance, this one held promise but it remained work in progress.

[Darkbloom]

No it wasn't.

Reminiscent of the Portsmouth Sinfonia at times.

Is this really how Brahms 1 ought to sound? Oh dear... reaching for the Staatskspelle Dresden...

We've just been informed that Marin Alsop knows the score backwards - perhaps that was the problem!

I can't let that comment go by without giving it the

Dresden haven't been to the Proms for a while, sadly. One of those bands you really don't appreciate properly until you hear them live. There's something about them that gets lost when they go through a microphone.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Dresden haven't been to the Proms for a while, sadly. One of those bands you really don't appreciate properly until you hear them live. There's something about them that gets lost when they go through a microphone.

I wonder whether this has more to do with the acoustics of the Semperoper than with the microphone effect?

[verismissimo]

I can't let that comment go by without giving it the

Dresden haven't been to the Proms for a while, sadly. One of those bands you really don't appreciate properly until you hear them live. There's something about them that gets lost when they go through a microphone.

It seems to me that there are any number of first rate 'traditional' orchestras that play Brahms excellently - from Berlin, Leipzig, Dresden, Vienna, London, Birmingham, Chicago, Boston etc etc.

To compare OAE's Brahms negatively with these is completely beside the point. I'm old enough to recall very similar comments made when, for example, the Academy of Ancient Music sounded 'emaciated' in Mozart, compared with eg Sir Thomas and his LPO, or Karajan and his BPO.

The OAE is truly pioneering historically informed performance practice in late Romantic repertoire. It's exciting, different and ear-opening IMO. And for some it's just not comfortable.

[Darkbloom]

I wonder whether this has more to do with the acoustics of the Semperoper than with the microphone effect?

I'm not sure. They seem the least egotistical of great orchestras, with a particular (almost diffident) style of brass playing where they sound like they are tucked behind the strings, giving it a very distinct sound, in contrast to the players of the BPO who all want to be front and centre all the time. Also, the strings have a beautifully soft-grained sound that sounds quite coarse over the air or on disc. The first time I heard them was when they played the Jupiter symphony and I thought 'wow, this is really different'. Whether that style happens to suit you is another matter, but in an age of international homogeneity they really stood out.

[Darkbloom]

It seems to me that there are any number of first rate 'traditional' orchestras that play Brahms excellently - from Berlin, Leipzig, Dresden, Vienna, London, Birmingham, Chicago, Boston etc etc.

To compare OAE's Brahms negatively with these is completely beside the point. I'm old enough to recall very similar comments made when, for example, the Academy of Ancient Music sounded 'emaciated' in Mozart, compared with eg Sir Thomas and his LPO, or Karajan and his BPO.

The OAE is truly pioneering historically informed performance practice in late Romantic repertoire. It's exciting, different and ear-opening IMO. And for some it's just not comfortable.

I gave that the thumbs up because I thought it was an amusing remark. I haven't heard the performance yet. Brahms always has a reputation for being hard to play but I don't feel he is badly served at all by orchestras today, in contrast to the patchy treatment that I think Beethoven gets.

My experience of the OAE has always been slightly coloured by my first concert seeing them when they seemed the grumpiest bunch of players I have ever seen. They were being conducted by Heinrich Schiff that night and they clearly had no opinion of him at all. I swear one of the viola players was asleep, or close to nodding off, during the Eroica, and when the rest stood up to take their applause at the end they had pretty stony faces.

[verismissimo]

I gave that the thumbs up because I thought it was an amusing remark. I haven't heard the performance yet. Brahms always has a reputation for being hard to play but I don't feel he is badly served at all by orchestras today, in contrast to the patchy treatment that I think Beethoven gets.

My experience of the OAE has always been slightly coloured by my first concert seeing them when they seemed the grumpiest bunch of players I have ever seen. They were being conducted by Heinrich Schiff that night and they clearly had no opinion of him at all. I swear one of the viola players was asleep, or close to nodding off, during the Eroica, and when the rest stood up to take their applause at the end they had pretty stony faces.

My guess is that your observation may well be spot on, Darkbloom. The OAE can be quite grumpy when conducted by someone they don't rate. They choose who conducts them and who doesn't, and H Schiff doesn't seem to have been invited back!

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm not sure. They seem the least egotistical of great orchestras, with a particular (almost diffident) style of brass playing where they sound like they are tucked behind the strings, giving it a very distinct sound, in contrast to the players of the BPO who all want to be front and centre all the time. Also, the strings have a beautifully soft-grained sound that sounds quite coarse over the air or on disc. The first time I heard them was when they played the Jupiter symphony and I thought 'wow, this is really different'. Whether that style happens to suit you is another matter, but in an age of international homogeneity they really stood out.

Ooh, I can't let that pass without comment...
Strings "coarse over the air or on disc"? Have you tried the Hanssler Profil live series with Colin Davis or Haitink, Db? Not much sign of anything but that dark, blended Dresden tonal beauty on those, e.g. Davis's Mendelssohn 3 & 5, Tippett Child of Our Time, Schubert's 9th - or Haitink Bruckner 6... all in the Semperoper of course.
Nor do I recall any great upper-frequency discomfort with Jochum's Bruckner.

Earlier issues of analogue tapings such as the classic Sawallisch Schumann cycle didn't always cope too well with the resonances of the ubiquitous Lukaskirche - the EMI Studio set wasn't always easy on the ears. But listen to Okazaki's Toshiba reissue** and marvel at the lustre, strength and warmth of those strings again, and the wonderfully tangible acoustic. Suitner's Mozart Symphonies set on Berlin Classics from the late 60s/70s goes pretty well too - I just tried No.32 and was fairly pleased with the upper strings on that too - a shade more forward than the Schumann but well-balanced.

I've loved the sound of the Staatskapelle a long time - but it was a love inspired, precisely, by recordings and broadcasts...
I did hear them live at the Bridgewater once, Haitink in Haydn 44 and Bruckner 6. The Haydn was a shade dull, the Bruckner wasn't exactly mellow!

(**the EMI GROC isn't too far behind...but Toshiba - )