Prom 57: COE/Haitink (28.08.15)

[Nick Armstrong]

More of a big band girl myself

A second listen this morning and I'm suddenly much more into it, a thrilling ride as DracoM suggests.

Just embarking on my re-listen, via the Airport Express on the big Hifi having downloaded both halves.

Thank heavens it's Martin Handley presenting - I was dreading hearing the lithping Burton-Hill, the burbling Mr Ibragimova or the simpering Derham.

But no - safe hands!

[Darkbloom]

I thought this was a bit disappointing. Probably partly a result of my hopes being so high at the outset. BH really is an enigma. You never know what you are going to get from him, despite his reputation for being rather old-school and conservative. I haven't heard the COE for a long time and I think part of the problem I had was with their rather matter-of-fact approach, clipped phrasing, and a somewhat dry sound from the strings. Haitink's overriding priority was obviously structural - to make sure that the performance didn't wander off into the doldrums - and I felt he achieved that (brilliantly, it has to be said, as the performance flew by) at the expense of any real depth of feeling. I think you know what you are going to get from a conductor right at the start of the 9th, and I felt it began in a breezy way that set the tone for the rest of the performance. The slow movement cantered along merely agreeably when other conductors have found more interesting things under the surface. Even the end didn't arrive with the sense of inevitability that I have heard in the best performances.

I shall have to give it another listen, as other people seem to have enjoyed it much more than I did.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - I was disappointed with the Schubert, too; and for the reasons that Darkbloom has mentioned "matter-of-fact" (I was thinking "perfunctory") and the "clipped phrasing" that made the overall experience a charmless, rushed affair. The Introduction and First Group sounded promising, but there was no variety - the "relentless drive" DracoM mentions made for a rather "samey" and even bland performance for me (not at all "thrilling", alas) for all the superb playing and wonderful ensemble (except at the start of the Scherzo) that DracoM also rightly points out.

[Darkbloom]

Yes - I was disappointed with the Schubert, too; and for the reasons that Darkbloom has mentioned "matter-of-fact" (I was thinking "perfunctory") and the "clipped phrasing" that made the overall experience a charmless, rushed affair. The Introduction and First Group sounded promising, but there was no variety - the "relentless drive" DracoM mentions made for a rather "samey" and even bland performance for me (not at all "thrilling", alas) for all the superb playing and wonderful ensemble (except at the start of the Scherzo) that DracoM also rightly points out.

Yes, the COE have some fine wind players, for example, but I wanted them to be given a bit more room to play instead of being driven on all the time. I have enormous respect for Haitink, but sometimes I don't feel his cool approach quite comes off. It made me wonder if he really rates the 9th all that highly (and felt he had to make interpretive sacrifices just to make the piece 'work') or that Schubert just doesn't suit his temperament. Intelligence and musicianship is sometimes not always enough, and I missed any real warmth or emotion. It made me wish Colin Davis was conducting - something I often feel these days.

[Zucchini]

Most importantly was Lorenza Borrani, the most beautiful orchestra leader in the world, in her chair and did Haitink go all soppy about her?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, the COE have some fine wind players, for example, but I wanted them to be given a bit more room to play instead of being driven on all the time.

I have enormous respect for Haitink, but sometimes I don't feel his cool approach quite comes off. It made me wonder if he really rates the 9th all that highly (and felt he had to make interpretive sacrifices just to make the piece 'work') or that Schubert just doesn't suit his temperament.

Resisting the temptation to suggest that it would have been better with Barenboim conducting () - I will, instead confine myself to pointing out that Haitink conducted a very fine recording of D944 with the Concertgebouw back in the mid-'70s. At around the same time, Boult had conducted the work in a concert that Haitink attended and was greatly impressed by. "That old man!" he gasped at the time. Boult was younger then than Haitink is now!

[greenilex]

I don't really know the Great C Major at all well and was listening without proper attention, I fear. Nothing I heard made me sit up and attend properly, I don't know why.

[Ferretfancy]

There is a really good Amsterdam Schubert 9 (or is it 8 now?) in the box set Haitink: The Phillips Years

I've fond memories of that Philips disc. It came out at the same time as Boult's recording, and was perhaps overshadowed by it in reviews by english critics.

[Ferretfancy]

I had almost decided to miss last night's Prom, but I'm very glad I changed my mind and stood in my usual place in a full hall. It was a sublime performance of a sublime concerto, with superb rapport between Pires and Haitink. Music like that makes you glad to live on this planet.

As soon as the horns began the symphony I knew we were in for the best. So often the opening is taken far too slowly, requiring an awkward speed change to what follows. Not so here, and the momentum was maintained throughout..
My only quibble is that the trombones sometimes sounded over emphatic, but this is a characteristic of the hall, at least for listeners in the Arena

Before the concert at the RCM, we heard a short concert of five works from young musicians in the BBC Proms Inspire Young Composers Competition. This was recorded for future transmission, and I recommend it enthusiastically. Members of the Aurora Orchestra conducted by Nicholas Collon greeted these 16 and 17 year olds and played with great commitment.

[EdgeleyRob]

I must listen to it later but never felt any sense of loss of weight in Abbado's set with the COE

Yes,which is why I was surprised to find this performance lacking somewhat.

[Darkbloom]

Resisting the temptation to suggest that it would have been better with Barenboim conducting () - I will, instead confine myself to pointing out that Haitink conducted a very fine recording of D944 with the Concertgebouw back in the mid-'70s. At around the same time, Boult had conducted the work in a concert that Haitink attended and was greatly impressed by. "That old man!" he gasped at the time. Boult was younger then than Haitink is now!

I have gone to many Haitink concerts over the years and got used to those nights when he seems a little disengaged. The results are never less than distinguished, just slightly uninvolving at times. I can well imagine that he got better results from the RCO; I think part of my problem was with the overall style of the COE (excellent musicians, but a little too driven and unimaginative for my taste), and the fact that a chamber orchestra robs Haitink of one of his main assets, which is his handling of large orchestral textures. I have listened to a couple of Furtwangler versions to see what I felt was missing, and the contrast could not be greater. Furtwangler made the whole thing live with lots of little adjustments of tempo within a basic overall pulse. The other night was all flow and no ebb, and felt very dry and schematic. It made me wonder if the piece (which I love) was all that good after all.

[Darkbloom]

Resisting the temptation to suggest that it would have been better with Barenboim conducting ()

Since you brought him up . I also listened to Furtwangler's recording with the VPO of Tchaik 4. How people can seriously claim Barenboim as the legitimate heir of Furtwangler is something that mystifies me. WF starts the thing off (as so often) quite deliberately, almost prosaically, before using that as a base to launch himself into a very interesting performance that reacts to the mood of the music with increases in tempo without robbing it of its structure. Compare that to DB's version, which was put in such a straitjacket that it sounded like Klemperer with a hangover, and you see the difference straight away.

Anyway, I shall put away my hobby horse - the poor thing has suffered enough.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It made me wonder if the piece (which I love) was all that good after all.

I wasn't moved to doubt the work, but it did occur to me several times during the performance that, had I been listening to this performance as my introduction to the work, I'd not be tempted to seek it out again.

Surprising - Haitink's Brahms performances with the COE from a couple of years ago were excellent ...


... nearly in the same league as Barenboim's Beethoven with WEDO.

[Darkbloom]

... nearly in the same league as Barenboim's Beethoven with WEDO.

I think that (ahem) spacious reading of the Ninth is still going on actually. They were about half way through the slow movement the last time I checked.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think that (ahem) spacious reading of the Ninth is still going on actually. They were about half way through the slow movement the last time I checked.

OY!!! That's my Celibidache joke turned back on me!

Much as I prefer Krivine to (almost) anybody else these days, I loved that Ninth - and it had the most joyful Finale I've ever heard from a "Big Band/Trad" performance - those kids singing their hearts and souls out, as if they hadn't been told that Beethoven's vocal lines were "forbidding".

Such a fickung shame that the soloists could only be described as ...


(assumes Edith Evans' Lady Bracknell tone)



... "Vocalists"!