Prom 49: Mahler – Symphony No. 6 (22.08.15)

[Vile Consort]

I wonder if the last two nights are the first ever instance of concerts in the same hall on two consecutive days featuring the hammer but in different works?

[ahinton]

I wonder if the last two nights are the first ever instance of concerts in the same hall on two consecutive days featuring the hammer but in different works?

I'd not realised that the previous Prom contained a performance of Le Marteau sans Mahler...

As you were...

[kernelbogey]

This is the Mahler symphony which I know least well. When I heard that Bruno Walther refused to conduct it, I felt more secure in my cool response to it. Last night I gave it my full attention throughout: recognised various moments, but didn't feel the impact which, say, the fifth has had on me. Maybe Anastasius's view of the performance has something to do with that. There were also so many Mahlerisms, if I may put it like that, that I could have been listening to a pastiche of a Mahler symphony.

Why do producers and their presenters think we want to hear what others thought of the symphony?

What I meant by this remark last night was that CBH ratttled of a whole paragraph of ideas from various sources about Was it too pessimistic?, No no not at all, Oh yes the final bars show the inevitability of Fate and so on and on. She helpfully included her own views on these weighty matters, but I switched off rather rapidly at that point.

This is really unnecessary, even (or especially!) if you are trying to win new listeners for 'classical' music.

[Anastasius]

I wonder if the last two nights are the first ever instance of concerts in the same hall on two consecutive days featuring the hammer but in different works?

To be a bit pedantic they were different hammers

[Roehre]

This is the Mahler symphony which I know least well. When I heard that Bruno Walther refused to conduct it, I felt more secure in my cool response to it. ....

Not only with Walter: Mahler 6 was a work which didn't go well with Mengelberg either.
The work was prepared by him for the Amsterdam premiere to be conducted by Mahler in 1906, but, as at a late stage Mahler was unable to conduct because of obligations elsewhere, the concert was cancelled. Despite the preparations the work was not done under Mengelberg himself.

It was the last work to be given its Amsterdam first performance (under Mengelberg) in the Concertgebouw, in 1916, and after two performances he only conducted it only once more, during the world's first Mahler-festival in Amsterdam in 1920.
It was especially the scherzo which Mengelberg disliked.

Before WW2 it was only played again once more in the Concertgebouw: in 1931 under Klemperer.

For comparison: 1, 4 and LvdE every season between 1921 and 1940; 2 and 5 approx every other season; 3, 7 , 8 and 9 quite regularly, only 6 and Adagio 10 went once.

[Alison]

Very interesting information Roehre.

I've always loved the work as many Mahlerians do.

It felt a bit like an orchestral showpiece last night and an earlier message left me too craving for the import of Tennstedt.

Haitink's classicism works very well too.

[Hornspieler]

Not only with Walter: Mahler 6 was a work which didn't go well with Mengelberg either.
The work was prepared by him for the Amsterdam premiere to be conducted by Mahler in 1906, but, as at a late stage Mahler was unable to conduct because of obligations elsewhere, the concert was cancelled. Despite the preparations the work was not done under Mengelberg himself.

It was the last work to be given its Amsterdam first performance (under Mengelberg) in the Concertgebouw, in 1916, and after two performances he only conducted it only once more, during the world's first Mahler-festival in Amsterdam in 1920.
It was especially the scherzo which Mengelberg disliked.

Before WW2 it was only played again once more in the Concertgebouw: in 1931 under Klemperer.

For comparison: 1, 4 and LvdE every season between 1921 and 1940; 2 and 5 approx every other season; 3, 7 , 8 and 9 quite regularly, only 6 and Adagio 10 went once.

Major Minor - the first two chords.

I played in this symphony under Horenstein and that is all that I remember about it (except that JH had a row with the second flautest who departed in floods of tears)

I suppose there must be several box sets of the Mahler cycle somewhere, but for me, the 2nd, 6th, 8th and LvdE are not worth bothering with and Mahler did Not write that so called 10th symphony.

"Symphony in the Style of Mahler" is the best apellation that I would grant this work.
(and the same goes for Elgar's so-called 3rd symphony)

HS

[ahinton]

and Mahler did Not write that so called 10th symphony.

"Symphony in the Style of Mahler" is the best apellation that I would grant this work.

Then you insult Mahler himself (which earlier observations in your post already suggest your readiness to do), given the sheer amount of music for that symphony that he personally wrote down.

(and the same goes for Elgar's so-called 3rd symphony)

That wasn't what Tony Payne called it, but the public, understandably less than keen on the clumsy title that it was originally given, took it to its heart as Elgar's Third Symphony and it's as near to that as anyone could possibly have hoped to get - a most remarkable achievement made no easier by the fact that, as Elgar had written so very little in the 15 years or so since his cello concerto, it would have been quite a task for the composer himself had he lived to complete it.

But who cares about Tony Payne, David and Colin Matthews, Deryck Cooke and Berthold Goldschmidt? What did/do any of them know about composition?...

[Keraulophone]

Major Minor - the first two chords. I played in this symphony under Horenstein and that is all that I remember about it
HS

There's a BBC Legends recording with BSO/JH from the Winter Gardens, Bournemouth on 10 January 1969... perhaps with HH not having much fun?

IMHO, Horenstein's Stockholm PO live recording is one of the few that can stand alongside Tennstedt, Abbado and early Bernstein in this awe-inspiring work.

[Bryn]

Major Minor - the first two chords.

I played in this symphony under Horenstein and that is all that I remember about it (except that JH had a row with the second flautest who departed in floods of tears)

I suppose there must be several box sets of the Mahler cycle somewhere, but for me, the 2nd, 6th, 8th and LvdE are not worth bothering with and Mahler did Not write that so called 10th symphony.

"Symphony in the Style of Mahler" is the best apellation that I would grant this work.
(and the same goes for Elgar's so-called 3rd symphony)

HS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There's a BBC Legends recording with BSO/JH from the Winter Gardens, Bournemouth on 10 January 1969... perhaps with HH not having much fun?

Or even paying attention, if he thinks "Major Minor" are "the first two chords"! (The first nine bars are an extended A minor chord - the Horns playing two such very loud at their very first entry in bar 6) followed by F major. The important A major - A minor juxtaposing (so important to the whole symphony) until bars 59 - 60, heralding the beginning of the Transition. Perhaps Hs believes that "Mahler did Not write" the first 55 bars, either?

IMHO, Horenstein's Stockholm PO live recording is one of the few that can stand alongside Tennstedt, Abbado and early Bernstein in this awe-inspiring work.

My "O", too (I'm not so "H" ) - Horenstein was one of the very greatest of Mahler conductors. (Well, that sentence works also without the "Mahler" - but he was especially good with this repertoire.)

[Tony Halstead]

Thanks for this, ahinton:

But who cares about Tony Payne, David and Colin Matthews, Deryck Cooke and Berthold Goldschmidt? What did/do any of them know about composition?...

[Keraulophone]

Or even paying attention, if he thinks "Major Minor" are "the first two chords"!

fhg, those remarks were so bizarrely mistaken that I deemed them unworthy of a reply... but ta anyway.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

fhg, those remarks were so bizarrely mistaken that I deemed them unworthy of a reply... but ta anyway.

Yes - I bit my tongue for an hour, but that only hurt my tongue!

[Bryn]

There's a BBC Legends recording with BSO/JH from the Winter Gardens, Bournemouth on 10 January 1969... perhaps with HH not having much fun?

IMHO, Horenstein's Stockholm PO live recording is one of the few that can stand alongside Tennstedt, Abbado and early Bernstein in this awe-inspiring work.

Unfortunately both recordings, in their CD manifestations, now command prohibitive prices via amazon.co.uk. However, the Stockholm PO recording may be found on Youtube (though the HE-AAC data rate is only 96kbps). There is also a new download option via Amazon as a set of four c. 256kbps mp3s for £3.16. I'm sure other download sites also have that recording available.