Prom 41: Sherlock Holmes – A Musical Mind (16.08.15)

[pureimagination]

To doversoul. I don't think that your original post remark about holidaymakers/tourists was a comment about tour operators and their want to book their clients into a Sunday afternoon concert - at quite a few of the Proms (especially those with high profile performers or pieces [amongst the general public] there are going to be tourists who it has been suggested to that they may like to take in a concert whilst in London). I felt that you were saying that a regular prom goer wouldn't want to go to a concert of lesser music. You also say that you don't enjoy going to concerts with different kinds of music - then no doubt you'll avoid going to any of the proms that include new or commissioned pieces because often to my mind these are different kinds of music. Finally I won't review the concert (but I may choose to comment on it).

[doversoul1]

I asked my original question, as it did not occur to me that a concert could be just one of many enjoyable things to do on Sunday afternoon or any afternoon or evening for that matter. From this point, this concert makes perfect sense although it is probably not a typical concert that many regular classical music listeners may choose to go for an obvious reason. By the way, what do you mean by lesser music?

[pureimagination]

I am certain doversoul that many regular classical music listeners also go to concerts of a variety of musical genres. Pigeon-holing doesn't help. You say that
"a concert could be just one of many enjoyable things to do on Sunday afternoon or any afternoon or evening for that matter. From this point, this concert makes perfect sense."
What do you mean by "this concert makes perfect sense"? That someone would only go to this concert because they want something to do a Sunday afternoon, that they'd be better off going to one of the classical music Proms?
What I mean by lesser music is that there are some who use the term 'lesser' or words to that effect which are used to devalue one kind of music in respect to another. Rather than just saying they aren't familar with something or they have a preference for one genre of music they do so by denegrating the music/performers/composers they don't like inferring that they are not to be enjoyed with equal relish or have less impact. I enjoy the music of Ralph Vaughan Williams/Ennio Morricone/Jay-Z (though there is music by them i'm less keen on) but I don't feel the need to set them up in competition or place one higher than the other. Different mood/place/experience, different choice of what i want to listen to. It's that simple.

[doversoul1]

pureimagination #33

You seem to be defending the matters that nobody has accused of.

many regular classical music listeners also go to concerts of a variety of musical genres

This is a concert with a variety of musical genres which is not the same as concerts of variety of musical genres. Nobody said, certainly I did not say that regular classical music listeners only went to classical music concerts.

That someone would only go to this concert because they want something to do a Sunday afternoon, that they'd be better off going to one of the classical music Proms?

I very much doubt that many people who are going to this concert expect to have profound musical experience. What’s wrong with having a good time on Sunday afternoon by enjoying a musical variety show?

What I mean by lesser music is that there are some who use the term 'lesser' or words to that effect which are used to devalue one kind of music in respect to another

As far as I am aware, most people on this forum are at great pains to emphasise that if they are not keen on certain musical genre or works, it has nothing to do with the value of the music but it is their preference or taste. ‘lesser music’ is one term I do not recall seeing on this forum. Have you?

I enjoy the music of Ralph Vaughan Williams/Ennio Morricone/Jay-Z (though there is music by them i'm less keen on) but I don't feel the need to set them up in competition or place one higher than the other

You certainly don’t need to feel such need. The ranges of music the members of this form listen to are absurdly wide. Nobody is bothered to put them in ranks.

I expect you’ll have more to argue but I have said all I think I need to say. Besides, others must be bored by now. So I shan’t continue this discussion.

[pureimagination]

to doversoul
To quote you "it is probably not a typical concert that many regular classical music listeners may choose to go for an obvious reason." The obvious reason being that it's not all 'classical music' is what I presume you're saying or is the obvious reason that you personally don't like these types of proms. And why is this prom a "musical variety show". Agreed the music is a variety of film/tv/operatic/classical music but surely many of the proms that include piece of classical music written in different eras by different composers could be called musical variety. Prom 5 for example.
I don't doubt forum members have wide musical tastes but in this forum the proms that get the most derision seem to be the non classical music proms. Blame the proms organisers for including them not those performing them or those that do wish to attend them.
I only used the word 'lesser' because some comments, by my personal interpretation, seemed to be saying that some music is of less import, and are quick to post comments inferring that. My posts are MY opinion, I don't claim to always accurately interpret what others are saying.

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't doubt forum members have wide musical tastes but in this forum the proms that get the most derision seem to be the non classical music proms.

Then show us where such "derision" has been expressed here.

Blame the proms organisers for including them not those performing them or those that do wish to attend them.

But we do, we DO! - not for organising non-classical concerts as part of the Proms per se, but the increasing proportion of them compared to the past; the non-reciprocity regarding other BBC stations than R3 being unwilling to broadcast classical music; and finally for the either mistaken or confected reason given that these concerts draw the non-familiarised public towards classical music purely by virtue of being part of The Proms.

I only used the word 'lesser' because some comments, by my personal interpretation, seemed to be saying that some music is of less import, and are quick to post comments inferring that. My posts are MY opinion, I don't claim to always accurately interpret what others are saying.

Again, you really ought to quote chapter & verse.

[Richard Tarleton]

Again, you really ought to quote chapter & verse.

I've pointed this out as well.

[doversoul1]

pureimagination
I won’t rejoin the discussion but just one thing; if you intend to discuss with others on this thread or any other threads on this forum, you need to be aware of the distinction between ‘wide ranges of music’ and ‘wide ranges of classical / art music’, or your arguments don’t hang together.

[pureimagination]

Please can someone define 'classical' music. Surely it's open to interpretation. To doversoul (or anyone else) - what is your meaning of art music? And who is the arbiter of what is included in that range of "classical/art music"?
I am quite aware that a section of posters to this forum don't like the "non-classical" proms, the show tunes proms, the non Radio 3 proms etc etc. I am also aware that some are not bothered by their inclusion - there's plenty of 'proper' proms to go to. On that subject, how many posters here still go to the proms? What percentage of broadcast proms do they listen to or watch? Do any of you record or heavens forbid download them?
The derision for those who want examples has been expressed here -
Prom 27 post 3 by S_A "This seems to be the worst example I have yet come across of bad music being presented within and outwith the holy of holies as exemplary in bringing people into Euroclassical music. And it's not even tuneful."
Prom 32 post 4 by french frank "This is a Sunday afternoon 'Proms lite' concert" post 7 by DracoM "Gosh, that was not one of the great Proms. Wall to wall sweetness." post 8 by S_A "Hubble Bubblegum?"
Prom 41 post 2 by Eine Alpen "The penultimate "gimmick" prom of the season?" post 5 by french frank "the nearest the RW Proms have come to the original concept of mixing the light with the not-so-light." post 16 by doversoul "I wonder what kind of an audience the BBC had in mind when it programmed this, or what the thinking behind the choice of the theme." post 17 by french frank "Sunday afternoon? Slightly odd" What is so odd about Sunday afternoons? post 20 by doversoul "I suppose there are quite a lot of holidaymakers who are looking for something ‘nice’ to do on Sunday afternoon" "...it will be a good thing if some people find Lassus or Stile Antico worth perusing further though I’m not holding my breath." post 32 by doversoul "this concert makes perfect sense although it is probably not a typical concert that many regular classical music listeners may choose to go for an obvious reason."
You may say these are just examples of individuals taste in music but what i ask is why the necessity to state them in a forum which often has contributions saying we need to encourage more young people (people of all ages, surely) to listen to classical music. Does anyone have any evidence that anyone at Radio 3/Proms headquarters read this forum? (if they do I'd love them to contribute). Surely when you use words or phrases that are negative towards one genre of music/variety of music you are no better than those who exclaim "classical music is for posh people", "it's boring" etc.
Would your reply be to a child who wanted to go to the Sherlock Prom be "No, you don't want to go to that. You need to go to a classical music Prom you'll hear better music there?"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Please can someone define 'classical' music. Surely it's open to interpretation. To doversoul (or anyone else) - what is your meaning of art music? And who is the arbiter of what is included in that range of "classical/art music"?
I am quite aware that a section of posters to this forum don't like the "non-classical" proms, the show tunes proms, the non Radio 3 proms etc etc. I am also aware that some are not bothered by their inclusion - there's plenty of 'proper' proms to go to. On that subject, how many posters here still go to the proms? What percentage of broadcast proms do they listen to or watch? Do any of you record or heavens forbid download them?
The derision for those who want examples has been expressed here -
Prom 27 post 3 by S_A "This seems to be the worst example I have yet come across of bad music being presented within and outwith the holy of holies as exemplary in bringing people into Euroclassical music. And it's not even tuneful."
Prom 32 post 4 by french frank "This is a Sunday afternoon 'Proms lite' concert" post 7 by DracoM "Gosh, that was not one of the great Proms. Wall to wall sweetness." post 8 by S_A "Hubble Bubblegum?"
Prom 41 post 2 by Eine Alpen "The penultimate "gimmick" prom of the season?" post 5 by french frank "the nearest the RW Proms have come to the original concept of mixing the light with the not-so-light." post 16 by doversoul "I wonder what kind of an audience the BBC had in mind when it programmed this, or what the thinking behind the choice of the theme." post 17 by french frank "Sunday afternoon? Slightly odd" What is so odd about Sunday afternoons? post 20 by doversoul "I suppose there are quite a lot of holidaymakers who are looking for something ‘nice’ to do on Sunday afternoon" "...it will be a good thing if some people find Lassus or Stile Antico worth perusing further though I’m not holding my breath." post 32 by doversoul "this concert makes perfect sense although it is probably not a typical concert that many regular classical music listeners may choose to go for an obvious reason."
You may say these are just examples of individuals taste in music but what i ask is why the necessity to state them in a forum which often has contributions saying we need to encourage more young people (people of all ages, surely) to listen to classical music. Does anyone have any evidence that anyone at Radio 3/Proms headquarters read this forum? (if they do I'd love them to contribute). Surely when you use words or phrases that are negative towards one genre of music/variety of music you are no better than those who exclaim "classical music is for posh people", "it's boring" etc.
Would your reply be to a child who wanted to go to the Sherlock Prom be "No, you don't want to go to that. You need to go to a classical music Prom you'll hear better music there?"

Does anyone else want to line up with me and the others for the firing squad?

I think those us about to be exterminated are simply questioning the effectiveness of the perceived policy of Radio 3 at the present time.

[doversoul1]

pureimagination

Please read it again if you are still interested in. I said nothing about defining classical music. If you do not understand the distinction, difference if you like, between wide ranges of music and wide ranges of classical / art music, I honestly don’t think you can discuss what you think you are discussing.

[french frank]

Would your reply be to a child who wanted to go to the Sherlock Prom be "No, you don't want to go to that. You need to go to a classical music Prom you'll hear better music there?"

Too many notes, Mozart (especially when presented as a rebarbative block of prose). I'll just take that one.

Were you really suggesing that my comment about this Prom being closest to the 'original concept of mixing the light with the not-so-light' was an example of derision? It was meant to be modified approval (modified in the sense that for Newman that was where he wanted the Proms to start, not end up 100 years later).

You seem to confuse criticism with 'derision'. It is perfectly valid to criticise any of these Proms (as with the classical ones) if you feel, even within their own terms, they weren't very good.

But this is supposed to be a thread about this particular Prom: not yet another discussion of 'what is classical music?'.

[pureimagination]

Does anyone else want to line up with me and the others for the firing squad?

I think those us about to be exterminated are simply questioning the effectiveness of the perceived policy of Radio 3 at the present time.

Not a firing squad but perhaps the blindfold could be placed over the mouth(s) for a little while due to the negativity out-weighing the encouragement/positivity. On this forum I sometimes feel as though I'm a 3 year old child who just handed a parent their latest painting only to be told "that's crap son, come back when you can paint like Rembrandt."
Maybe "questioning the effectiveness of the perceived policy of Radio 3 at the present time" can be left out of the Concert threads ("For discussion about each separate concert") and included solely in the "All matters Proms" section. Surely All Proms matter!

[french frank]

Maybe "questioning the effectiveness of the perceived policy of Radio 3 at the present time" can be left out of the Concert threads ("For discussion about each separate concert") and included solely in the "All matters Proms" section. Surely All Proms matter!

But this is the board for comments about individual Proms, in this case Prom 41.

[pureimagination]

pureimagination

Please read it again if you are still interested in. I said nothing about defining classical music. If you do not understand the distinction, difference if you like, between wide ranges of music and wide ranges of classical / art music, I honestly don’t think you can discuss what you think you are discussing.

Enlighten me then. I asked an open question regarding a definition of classical music. It seems to me that there are many personal interpretations of what constitutes classical music (I have not studied music/music theory), whilst there seems to be a consensus that indeed there are wide ranges of music.