Prom 34: Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra (10.08.15)

[Beef Oven!]

Interesting how KK took on the issue of applause between movements, when the audience applaused after the slam-bang ending of the 1st movement. He just dived into the scherzo headlong, so that the audience had to stop their applause fairly quickly.

I'm really not convinced that KK's 'dive' into the second movement was him taking on the issue of applause between movements. I think that was rehearsed and intended - I don't see how it could have been otherwise.

[jayne lee wilson]

PROM 34. BSO/KARABITS. PROKOFIEV 5.

A moderately-paced, understated opening to the andante, KK feeling his way - the music flowing nicely, if still circumspect, into the development. The BSO sounded slightly muted and rather recessed on the HDs webcast (a neutral, old-style BBC balance...!), but projected very powerfully into bolder moments and climaxes. Striking rasps from the brass - KK trying for a Russian accent, perhaps. A nice interpretative balance in this movement between the preludial and the climactic - this isn't a finale after all - the brass and percussion were excellent in the coda with a very wide dynamic range which the engineering didn't appear to restrict!

KK dived into the marcato almost without pause, silencing the interstitial applause. Maybe performers are getting as irritated by this habit, at least within more searching areas of the repertoire (surely no-one minds during Strauss waltzes, showpieces, lollipops etc), as Cumberbatch is with smartphones. Upbeat tempi here, quicksilver phrasing; svelte, crisp rhythmical profiling. MOSKVA 231 left the station jauntily, building a terrific head of steam into the coda. Excellent!

The searing Adagio was notably transparent, delicate and tender; but again with extremely powerful climaxes, filling the large space with metallic resonance. Karabits allowing the music to speak, clearly and honestly for itself, with no need for yearning melodramatics or agogic pause.
This continued into the finale, the contrapuntal lines strikingly clear, the locomotion flowing naturally without exaggerated attack, building with a lovely spontaneous feel into a brilliant final crash.

You might seek a more intense, vibrant Prokofiev 5th than this; but for clarity, naturalness, utterly idiomatic flow & terrific climactic power this succeeded splendidly on its own terms.
There's no "gloss & glamour" on the BSO's sound under Karabits; just honesty & integrity, serving the music: "listen to this" it seems to say, rather than "listen to us".

(Heard on R3 HDs 320 kbps via JRiver. Engineering excellent.)

[Bryn]

Cumberbatch's complaint is about audience members 'filming' his performance, rather than taking it in as a one-off live experience. Quite a different issue from interstitial approbation. Shame you felt the need to spoil an otherwise interesting review with such an irrelevant comment.

[Bryn]

I'm really not convinced that KK's 'dive' into the second movement was him taking on the issue of applause between movements. I think that was rehearsed and intended - I don't see how it could have been otherwise.

Quite. Otherwise it would have been the height of impertinence for him to plough on, disregarding not only those applauding, but also those hoping to hear the music restart from a quieter ambient level.

[edashtav]

Good solid start from the Bournemouth SO and KK with the "Four Sea Interludes" from 'Grimey Pete' (to quote Leonard Bernstein's nickname for the work), with perhaps a slight near slip of phrasing in the 2nd interlude (no actual wrong notes, but some odd placement thereof).

Yes, that spot of phrasing was a little odd, bsp. Thereafter things improved but never settled - there were a few awkward moments as other boarders have observed. Neither vintage KK nor the best that the BSO can manage opines an Old Bournemouthian.

[jayne lee wilson]

During this performance of the Prokofiev 5th Symphony by the BSO and Kirill Karabits, the audience applauded after the first and fourth movements, but not after the second or third.
Why?

1) By a secret, instantaneous voting system they collectively decided that these performances did not merit applause.
2) By a similar system they collectively decided that they wanted to hear the beginning(s) this time.
3) They spontaneously & collectively decided that applause was inappropriate in those places.
4) They spontaneously & collectively decided that the conductor, by starting the second movement in medias res of the interstitial applause, was trying to tell them something, i.e shut the **** up & just listen will ya! Or, See how you like it, plebs!

I dunno really. Try applying Occam's Razor...

[ahinton]

During this performance of the Prokofiev 5th Symphony by the BSO and Kirill Karabits, the audience applauded after the first and fourth movements, but not after the second or third.
Why?

1) By a secret, instantaneous voting system they collectively decided that these performances did not merit applause.
2) By a similar system they collectively decided that they wanted to hear the beginning(s) this time.
3) They spontaneously & collectively decided that applause was inappropriate in those places.
4) They spontaneously & collectively decided that the conductor, by starting the second movement in medias res of the interstitial applause, was trying to tell them something, i.e shut the **** up & just listen will ya! Or, See how you like it, plebs!

I dunno really. Try applying Occam's Razor...

Or have Sondheim's Sweeney Todd do it for you!

The problem with all four such arguments is, of course, that an audience - even a Prom audience, is unlikely to make, or indeed be able to make, "collective decisions" of this kind; the only geuine instances of that kind of thing (or the nearest to it) being, in my experience, the kind exemplified by a Prom performance of Mahler 9 conducted by Abbado in which no one appluaded afterwards for what seemed like an eternity, which response seemed to me to be about as apt a mix of respect for composer, conductor and players and evidence of how moved listeners were. This, though, begs the other question as to whether and to what extent applause in the form of the sound of more than one hand clapping is without exception appropriate and understandable even at the ends of performances...

That said, speculation is all very well but I rather think that the only way to get to the bottom of this kind of thing is to interview as many audience members as they leave the concert hall and actually ask them why they applauded when they did in cases when they applauded during rather than only at the ends of performances, in the hope of honest answers, even if some of these happened to be "well, those seated nearest to me started to appluad so I joined in" as distinct from self-motivated applause.

[Beef Oven!]

During this performance of the Prokofiev 5th Symphony by the BSO and Kirill Karabits, the audience applauded after the first and fourth movements, but not after the second or third.
Why?

1) By a secret, instantaneous voting system they collectively decided that these performances did not merit applause.
2) By a similar system they collectively decided that they wanted to hear the beginning(s) this time.
3) They spontaneously & collectively decided that applause was inappropriate in those places.
4) They spontaneously & collectively decided that the conductor, by starting the second movement in medias res of the interstitial applause, was trying to tell them something, i.e shut the **** up & just listen will ya! Or, See how you like it, plebs!

I dunno really. Try applying Occam's Razor...

IMV, it is fairly obvious why there was no clapping after the second or third movement - there was a risk that it might overlap with the music, and that would be a no-no.

First of all, it must be understood that whilst it might be a 'battle of wills' in this forum, it is no such thing at the actual concerts and when the conductor moved very swiftly into the second movement, the applause overlapped with the music, which no-one wants. This meant that clapping after the second movement could risk the same thing happening, so the audience deferred.

Respect and a oneness with the performance is paramount and no-one would want to 'assert their right' or make a point by subjugating the performance to their own view on things. There was nothing spontaneous about not clapping after the second movement, it was obvious from the end of the first movement that doing so could overlap with the music, so the audience would not risk it.

IMV, what we are witnessing is not 'a battle that must be one or lost', but a shift in behaviour at Proms concerts, based on a natural desire to show approbation 'in the moment', rather than (somewhat unnaturally) save it up until the whole work has been completed, farther down the line.

It may be that deferred responses continue for the foreseeable future at 'regular' classical concerts, but it's at the Proms where a development is taking place, and that's what it is we're talking about!

[Darkbloom]

Applause is often just a reflex anyway and doesn't have much to do with the quality of the performance. I went to the Tallis Scholars Prom last year where the audience was requested to file out of the hall without applause as part of the WW1 commemorations. It didn't stop them and people clapped anyway, giving it a very awkward feeling. I wonder what it must have been like to attend performances of Parsifal at Bayreuth, when it used to be traditional to withhold applause. Very odd, I should think.

I have heard people mention the Abbado Mahler 9 quite often, and it must have been a special evening. Sometimes, though, conductors try to hold off applause too long and you are aware that it seems a bit phoney and that the performances doesn't merit that kind of awe-struck treatment. Yes, I am moaning about too much silence as well as too much applause. How British can I get?!!

[kernelbogey]

[...]
1) By a secret, instantaneous voting system they collectively decided that these performances did not merit applause.
2) By a similar system they collectively decided that they wanted to hear the beginning(s) this time.
3) They spontaneously & collectively decided that applause was inappropriate in those places.
4) They spontaneously & collectively decided that the conductor, by starting the second movement in medias res of the interstitial applause, was trying to tell them something, i.e shut the **** up & just listen will ya! Or, See how you like it, plebs!
...

[ucanseetheend]

Disappointed the Bournemouth Symphony never a get a showing on TV. Every year we get the Halle and NYO and other non BBC bands,the Same ones,but never the BSO. Sums up the TV programming, production and Editorial.Nice cosy Cabal!

[Alison]

Yes very true about Bournemouth. I do enjoy looking at all the faces and assessing the spirit within a band.

[Sir Velo]

Disappointed the Bournemouth Symphony never a get a showing on TV. Every year we get the Halle and NYO and other non BBC bands,the Same ones,but never the BSO. Sums up the TV programming, production and Editorial.Nice cosy Cabal!

Not so fast! A chance to see that dress and the rest of the orchestra on Thursday BBC4 at 7:30 in the "Concerto" slot.

The Britten and Prokofiev are on the iplayer.

[hanners]

...and Prok 5 will be in the 'Symphony' slot. Hence the whole programme will be televised.
Why must people so often decide everything's a totally unfair and devious plot without checking facts first? As far as I'm aware the BSO is valued just as the other Bands you mention...

[slarty]

...and Prok 5 will be in the 'Symphony' slot. Hence the whole programme will be televised.
Why must people so often decide everything's a totally unfair and devious plot without checking facts first? As far as I'm aware the BSO is valued just as the other Bands you mention...

The Symphony Slot is a "no go area" for me until they drop the ridiculous Mark Elder discussions between the movements.