Prom 33: Sir John Eliot Gardiner/ORR (9.08.15)

[jean]

I can't comment on this instance because I wasn't there. But I don't think you are right when you say

...I don't think that clapping between movements is ever about a confused audience not realising that a work hasn't actually ended...

You can tell it's sometimes the case, because they look confused and embarrassed when the music starts again.

[Padraig]

You can tell it's sometimes the case, because they look confused and embarrassed when the music starts again.

I'm glad you pointed that out, jean. I was dying to appeal for sympathy for those who have not the vast experience of the concert goers in the bigger centres. Sometimes I feel smugly superior for not clapping, and then I know I'm really one of those I don't like for their superior down the nose attitude. At other times I'm nicer.

[gedsmk]

They were speakers above the sound baffles over the orchestra (this is the usual location for speakers, though for more fully amplified Proms there are usually soem along the front of the stage too - some of these are usually monitors). Someone presumably had to cue the bell sounds in some way, so it may well be the percussionist did this (I too saw him scurry off). Bells aren't the easiest things to record, and the sound didn't seem entirely natural to me (and I'm a ringer). We've certainly had church bells up in the gallery, or on stage, before now, but apparently the sizes specified by Berlioz were too large to be brought in, according to the rumours around me in the arena.

I could swear I've been to a Prom of SF with actual bells. But not 2013 when Maris Jansons and the BRSO used a recording (a much better one I thought). there's a great version of that prom on youtube. The claim on Radio 3 was that an electronic "pad" was cued by the percussionist who went off stage, with the sound of bells recorded in the Netherlands, because actual bells would be too large and heavy for the concert. must look for the score to see what Berlioz actually asked for.
what about these though? https://youtu.be/cao6WyF-61s?t=2m54s

[Simon B]

It's relatively easy to get hold of proper church bells (C & G for SF) - usually mounted upside down in a thing like a flight case. The aptly named Bell Percussion in London is often the first port-of-call for exotica: http://www.bellperc.com/hire/tuned/m...lls--c--g.html.

These, or similar, have indeed been repeatedly used in Prom performances in recent years, usually placed in the gallery. E.g. The BBC Phil/Tortelier maybe 10 years ago.

They are much more effective than even bass tubular bells in the RAH in my opinion. They are rather expensive to hire - unsurprising since individual bells can cost £thousands to buy. Plus, you need a capacious van, some strong people to move them and a percussionist with earplugs and strong nerves. For the Proms this really oughtn't be a problem.

For other works (Shostakovich 11's coda is inordinately more bone chilling with them IMO) the pitches can be harder to source. Apparently, it sometimes comes down to what e.g. the Whitechapel Foundry happens to have in stock...

[Bryn]

I seem to recall that Bernstein was said to have used large metal plates for his NYPO recording.

[Petrushka]

There was an article I remember in Hi-Fi News and Record Review back in around 1974 called 'Hell's Bells and Hector Berlioz' which went through this question and the host of solutions in an amusing and thorough way. Just wish I could source it again as it was an entertaining and instructive read.

[David Underdown]

I could swear I've been to a Prom of SF with actual bells. But not 2013 when Maris Jansons and the BRSO used a recording (a much better one I thought). there's a great version of that prom on youtube. The claim on Radio 3 was that an electronic "pad" was cued by the percussionist who went off stage, with the sound of bells recorded in the Netherlands, because actual bells would be too large and heavy for the concert. must look for the score to see what Berlioz actually asked for.
what about these though? https://youtu.be/cao6WyF-61s?t=2m54s

Eek, hitting bells on the outside is a very easy way to crack them. The sound bow on the inside is the bit that's designed to take the impact.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I could swear I've been to a Prom of SF with actual bells. But not 2013 when Maris Jansons and the BRSO used a recording (a much better one I thought). there's a great version of that prom on youtube. The claim on Radio 3 was that an electronic "pad" was cued by the percussionist who went off stage, with the sound of bells recorded in the Netherlands, because actual bells would be too large and heavy for the concert. must look for the score to see what Berlioz actually asked for.

The score is quite flexible - two bells, one tuned to C (either middle C or either of the Cs an octave or two octaves lower) the other to G a fourth lower (and with the same lower octave options). If bells this low can't be found, then Berlioz makes clear that the part shouldn't be played on bells of a higher octave, but instead the notes should be played by a pianist, playing all three octaves -

If 2 bells are not available which are large enough to produce one of the three Cs and one of the three Gs as written, it is better to use the pianofortes. In such an event the bell-part must be played with double-octaves as written.

The Bernstein clip uses middle C and lower G.

[jayne lee wilson]

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/aug/10/prom-33-orr-john-eliot-gardiner-review

[Keraulophone]

Berlioz makes clear that the part shouldn't be played on bells of a higher octave, but instead the notes should be played by a pianist, playing all three octaves

Thought I'd check what hi-jinks Stokowski got up to with the New Philharmonia in 1969 on Decca Phase 4 (in the big P4 box). He uses tubular bells and three octaves of piano simultaneously. Typically OTT as expected, but actually an unusually creepy and effective sonority. Very different from Karajan's lugubrious electronics in 1975.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Thought I'd check what hi-jinks Stokowski got up to with the New Philharmonia in 1969 on Decca Phase 4 (in the big P4 box). He uses tubular bells and three octaves of piano simultaneously. Typically OTT as expected, but actually an unusually creepy and effective sonority.

Really? I must check it out. I bought that box, listened to everything once, but never felt inclined to return to it because of the tiring listening experience.

[Alison]

Andrew Clements blames the acoustic for the blurring I mentioned earlier. Fair enough. I still say some of the wind lines went for nothing on the wireless but most probably a very different aural experience at the front of the Arena.

[cloughie]

There was an article I remember in Hi-Fi News and Record Review back in around 1974 called 'Hell's Bells and Hector Berlioz' which went through this question and the host of solutions in an amusing and thorough way. Just wish I could source it again as it was an entertaining and instructive read.

Pet, 'twas John Crabbe 1978 pp91-3, if anyone has a copy handy in their loft and wouldn't mind copying it to the board it might be a good read. I remember a performance in Symphony Hall in the 90s with RPO and Previn - I heard a sound but saw no bells - all down to electronics an buttons methought at the time!

[Beef Oven!]

I like how a good gig makes you want to hear the music again and again.

I really enjoyed an early-hours listen to Symphonie Fantastique OReR, JEG. I'm able to pick out so much more detail now, and visualise how it happened at the gig.

Think I'll spin it now!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I remember a performance in Symphony Hall in the 90s with RPO and Previn - I heard a sound but saw no bells - all down to electronics an buttons methought at the time!

Well, they're directed to play off-stage (derriere le stage), Cloughie; which cam lead to some interesting methods of synchronizing with the conductor (Bell-ringers might wish to look away from these clips!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odp7r1onCrs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNbj_ZHkJ5E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9O_9NaLzg0