Prom 33: Sir John Eliot Gardiner/ORR (9.08.15)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So this thread is now not about JEG's Beethoven, but the 'applause or not between movements' team? There is another thread specifically dedicated to this latter issue.
Grrrr.

B.O. has put his post on both threads, presumably to provoke and annoy. Therefore, I have moved all such posts to that other thread.

[mercia]

those who were there - how did the bells sound in the hall ? were you particularly aware of where the sound was coming from ?

shame this concert wasn't televised, I'm still intrigued as to the standing arrangements

[Beef Oven!]

Great gig last night. First time I've attended these works with a 'period' orchestra. I was surprised how different the orchestra sounded - so much more detail and I particularly enjoyed how the strings melded seamlessly together, especially the violas and cellos. The brass sound, whilst not 'huge' was thrilling. It was an electrifying performance of LvB's 5th and possibly my most enjoyable one.

The Berlioz was, IMV even better. I was surprised with how every note seemed to be teased out of the score and presented in such detail whilst the overall sound was perfectly presented. I heard so much more music, more than I'd ever heard before.

Unfortunately there was an awful lot of distracting coughing, coming from the seats. I was standing in the centre near the front and the coughing was coming from the seats to my right. I couldn't understand why there was so much coughing, it's hardly the 'flu season.

I'm usually very noise-tolerant at concerts, but last night it seemed to happen during the quietest moments and was distracting. In one very quiet passage in the Berlioz, someone seemed to be trying to contain a sneeze and perhaps squeeze it out through their ears or something. They failed and I would be surprised if the strange alien-like noise that they emitted, was not audible to radio listeners!

And judging by the turning of heads and disapproving looks, I wasn't the only person distracted.

There was also a lot of audience chatter between movements and JEG was not adverse to a bit of confab with the musicians closest to him! He threw his baton at the violists at one point, but I think it was accidental. Happily he had another with him, and found it after conducting with his bare hands for a few seconds!.

The audience positively erupted in applause between the third and forth movement. The applause definitely did not start in the arena - it started in the seats and I, along with many others enthusiastically joined in.

The house was packed and it was a fabulous concert. IMV, we are privileged to have such outstanding musicians like JEG and the OReR giving such amazing concerts. I would rush to such a concert again.

[Beef Oven!]

those who were there - how did the bells sound in the hall ? were you particularly aware of where the sound was coming from ?

shame this concert wasn't televised, I'm still intrigued as to the standing arrangements

The bells sounded realistic (unlike some Parsifal bells I've heard) and appeared to come from the top right hand side of the stage. I was standing towards the front in the centre.

[gedsmk]

The bells sounded realistic (unlike some Parsifal bells I've heard) and appeared to come from the top right hand side of the stage. I was standing towards the front in the centre.

It was a fantastic performance of both works and a thrill to hear the brass in the Berlioz, and the wonderful harps also. But I didn't think the bells were very realistic, and such a contrast in view of the determination to be as true to Berlioz (and Beethoven)'s original sound world as possible in all other departments. I know they wouldn't have been dragging bells from St Sulpice, but actual bells of the correct pitch have been used at the proms before for Berlioz (Unless I am mistaken?), as well as for Shostakovich's 11th. The sharp direct and instant sound from a hammer hitting a real bell was replaced by a loudspeaker muffled "bong" which then crescendo'ed for several seconds before fading away. It actually sounds better to my ears on iplayer than it did in the Arena. It would be good to know if alternatives were explored; of course, pitch may have been a major issue as well.

[Beef Oven!]

It was a fantastic performance of both works and a thrill to hear the brass in the Berlioz, and the wonderful harps also. But I didn't think the bells were very realistic, and such a contrast in view of the determination to be as true to Berlioz (and Beethoven)'s original sound world as possible in all other departments. I know they wouldn't have been dragging bells from St Sulpice, but actual bells of the correct pitch have been used at the proms before for Berlioz (Unless I am mistaken?), as well as for Shostakovich's 11th. The sharp direct and instant sound from a hammer hitting a real bell was replaced by a loudspeaker muffled "bong" which then crescendo'ed for several seconds before fading away. It actually sounds better to my ears on iplayer than it did in the Arena. It would be good to know if alternatives were explored; of course, pitch may have been a major issue as well.

Well, maybe I'm easily fooled! You make an excellent point about the level of authenticity of everything else - shame then, if the bells didn't have the same attention to detail and skill applied.

Btw, Where were you in the hall?

[blackalbum]

Hello

I am new to this forum but thought it might be useful to add my thoughts on the bell, as from my position in the stalls I thought I saw a percussionist scurry off backstage at the start of the final movement, and therefore assumed that there was a genuine offstage instrument of some sort that he was heading off to play. (One of the oboists had played from a similar offstage spot earlier on). Was there an offstage loudspeaker instead of a real bell?

Also just to confirm the position of the musicians, it looked to me as though all the strings were standing through, with the exception of the strings. For the final movement of the Beethoven, the brass also stood up. For the second movement of the Berlioz, the four harps were moved to the front centre of the stage. This was new me as I'd not seen this done at other performances of this piece. They then moved back to the sides again at the end of the movement, hence the opportunity for the audience hubbub of chatter between movements.

I thought it all sounded tremendous in the hall - a really good evening.

[french frank]

Thanks for the on the spot thoughts, blackalbum - and welcome!

[Beef Oven!]

Hello

I am new to this forum but thought it might be useful to add my thoughts on the bell, as from my position in the stalls I thought I saw a percussionist scurry off backstage at the start of the final movement, and therefore assumed that there was a genuine offstage instrument of some sort that he was heading off to play. (One of the oboists had played from a similar offstage spot earlier on). Was there an offstage loudspeaker instead of a real bell?

Also just to confirm the position of the musicians, it looked to me as though all the strings were standing through, with the exception of the strings. For the final movement of the Beethoven, the brass also stood up. For the second movement of the Berlioz, the four harps were moved to the front centre of the stage. This was new me as I'd not seen this done at other performances of this piece. They then moved back to the sides again at the end of the movement, hence the opportunity for the audience hubbub of chatter between movements.

I thought it all sounded tremendous in the hall - a really good evening.

There was quite a bit of chatter between movements, not just when the harps were brought on and off. I was quite surprised about how much chatter there was, and JEG had begun the fifth movement while people around me were still chatting.

I don't have any problem with people chatting between movements, but I draw the line when the music is being played.

Although sometimes I've heard a parent explaining something to a child, or a friend explaining or pointing something out to a friend, which I find acceptable, even though the music is playing - it's hardly going to happen much.

(have I gone off topic!)

[Darkbloom]

I heard this one on the radio. I enjoyed the Beethoven but felt my attention wander a bit during the Berlioz for some reason. At times it felt like momentum was lost a little bit, particularly at the moments when JEG was stretching the music out a bit further than necessary, like the end of the last movement. Things did sound a little restless in the second half, so I wonder whether the attention of the audience was entirely captured. It was also the first time I have heard so much audience applause after the March to the Scaffold - evidently many were getting their coats and heading for the exit.

[Beef Oven!]

"...............It was also the first time I have heard so much audience applause after the March to the Scaffold - evidently many were getting their coats and heading for the exit.

I don't think that it's evident that people thought that the concert was over and they were applauding what they thought was the end.

In fact I don't think that clapping between movements is ever about a confused audience not realising that a work hasn't actually ended.

What I think you witnessed was a clear case of unabashed, unashamed applause between movements. And I joined in whole-heartedly!

[Darkbloom]

I don't think that it's evident that people thought that the concert was over and they were applauding what they thought was the end.

In fact I don't think that clapping between movements is ever about a confused audience not realising that a work hasn't actually ended.

What I think you witnessed was a clear case of unabashed, unashamed applause between movements. And I joined in whole-heartedly!

Possibly. I've been to performances where that hasn't been the case though. Take Don Giovanni - a good chunk of people forget about the epilogue and are almost out the door after the supper scene when the music starts again. They probably think it's an encore.

[Beef Oven!]

Possibly. I've been to performances where that hasn't been the case though. Take Don Giovanni - a good chunk of people forget about the epilogue and are almost out the door after the supper scene when the music starts again. They probably think it's an encore.

A stand corrected! I'm surprised that people would take enough trouble to attend a long concert like DG and not be aware of its architecture.

I think I'll give it a whirl on CD now, I've not listened to it in an age. I will probably not listen to the whole thing, but I'll watch out following the supper scene!

I've just pulled Geraint Evans, Heather Harper, Helen Donath, Daniel Barenboim from the shelf.

[David Underdown]

They were speakers above the sound baffles over the orchestra (this is the usual location for speakers, though for more fully amplified Proms there are usually soem along the front of the stage too - some of these are usually monitors). Someone presumably had to cue the bell sounds in some way, so it may well be the percussionist did this (I too saw him scurry off). Bells aren't the easiest things to record, and the sound didn't seem entirely natural to me (and I'm a ringer). We've certainly had church bells up in the gallery, or on stage, before now, but apparently the sizes specified by Berlioz were too large to be brought in, according to the rumours around me in the arena.

[Serial_Apologist]

(and I'm a ringer)

I've never before met anyone who consisted of the front and rear halves of two separate cars welded together!