Prom 31: NYO of Great Britain (8.08.15)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

For anyone worrying about the lack of overall structure, remember that was the bit in the hands of an experienced professional.

That reminds me of an occasion when I conducted a music service concert band. A young bassoonist, still at primary school, would smile knowingly anyone whenever anyone in the band (or me) said or did something that was ever so slightly musically inaccurate. It wasn't long before she was in the NYO, where she may well have continued to smile when the conductor got it wrong.

This is why gushing about them annoys me. The performers are brilliant without presenters having to tell us.

[kernelbogey]

There hasn't been much comment other than that about the presenter's predictable gushing (not overly excessive in my view).....

Guilty as charged, m'lud. I was unable to listen to begin with in Beefy's Modes 2/3, due to domestic distractions, but settled down to listen to the last movement, which I thought was beautifully played. The coda was wonderful and Mark Elder held the silence wonderously for what seemed close to a full minute.

I don't feel confident to comment on the earlier movements, although the playing sounded pretty good to me.

This is one symphony, however much I admire it - and Schubert Unfinished, Eroica, LvB 5, Mahler 2, Bruckner 7 are others - which I try to listen to only rarely as I fear slumping into Beefy Mode 1 through over-familiarity. I sinned on this occasion for a bit.

But the Tansy Davies piece sounded great to me.

[Petrushka]

Yes, the Tansy Davies work was brilliant, fantastically orchestrated and over all too soon.

[gedsmk]

Guilty as charged, m'lud. I was unable to listen to begin with in Beefy's Modes 2/3, due to domestic distractions, but settled down to listen to the last movement, which I thought was beautifully played. The coda was wonderful and Mark Elder held the silence wonderously for what seemed close to a full minute.

I don't feel confident to comment on the earlier movements, although the playing sounded pretty good to me.

Enjoyed it all very much from the arena. What amazing players! the solo oboe, high clarinet, piccolo, bassoon, horn, trumpet, cello, viola and violin all top class at such a young age. Wonderful to hear huge string tone in the climaxes and breathtaking PPP towards the end when we weren't sure if they were still playing or if the sound was from the "air conditioning" or "the breath of the spirits"? Only weak point was a mis tuning between harp and clarinet at one point. Tempi were rather quicker than I was expecting.
I do wonder though if the emotion in the piece wasn't simply too much for some to handle, one or two seemed to be in tears at the end.

[Petrushka]

I do wonder though if the emotion in the piece wasn't simply too much for some to handle, one or two seemed to be in tears at the end.

The annual RAH Prom is the final concert in the NYO Summer season and one frequently see tears at the end as members go their separate ways and bid farewell to friends made, though your point could be equally valid. 'Parting is such sweet sorrow'.

[antongould]

Just listened to this and, hopefully, without gushing I thought the orchestra performed beautifully. I was even tempted to join in the between movement applause

[Hornspieler]

This comment really struck a chord with myself. I have got to say that I avoid concerts by any high profile youth orchestra like the plague - not because I am jealous and envious of the young and talented (although of course I am!) but because of comments by presenters and journalists such as "they played much better than the professionals!", "they gave much more than do professionals!", "they gave the professionals a run for their money!" etc.,etc.

Well, perhaps these comments are true but, could they 'give' as much if they were rehearsing and playing 5, 6 some times 7 days per week, every week, out at night in all weathers miles from home, with poor to indifferent conductors and managements who do not have enough money to run the orchestras properly and see the players as the best department on which to save money?

I have worked with many people who have toured the world with this or that all-star youth orchestra and began their careers bright eyed and bushy tailed - only to become cynical and depressed within a few years. Such players can be found in most, if not all, all professional orchestras and few have the professional qualifications to give them an escape route.

This should not be - nobody goes into these jobs in order to coast along. It is time that this country looked after its artists better; and also that the music colleges better prepared their students for the rigors to come.

Please do not see this as an attack on these young players; it is certainly not meant to be. And please do not take this to mean that orchestras are full of bitter and disenchanted people. For those who can survive the profession's downsides, they have a career which, when retired, they can look back on with pleasure and in which they will meet many fine and interesting characters.

Well said, OW4
I've been banging on about this for years and have had insults and recriminations hurled at me from people on these boards who have no idea of what professional musicians have to endure besides just playing the music.

I am all in favour of young players having early acquaintance with the more difficult orchestral works and have myself, since the time of my own experience with the Ernest Read Music Associations School orchestra summer Courses from the age of 13, progressed from there through the Royal Academy of Music to become a professional horn player and in fact to coach and guide young players as I once was myself.

When I first entered the RAM, I found that the wide range of repertoire that was covered by Ernest Read's four orchestras (beginners standard (orchestra D) up to Highest Standard (Orchestra A) introduced a huge amount of orchestral experience to many, and for those who did aspire to go on into the profession.

My problem with the NYOGB and similar youth orchestras is that they are taught the music by rote. Intensive work on a programme to be performed alongside established professional orchestras who, as OW4 states, do not have a week of 30 or more hours to prepare just one programme.

When I met up with former members of the NYO at the RAM, I found many skilled players among them, but I could sightread the pants off the lot of them.

Yes. Let's have these Youth Orchestras - the more the better (especially in the strings departments) but don't expose those young players to misplaced flattery. To do so can build up false hopes and for some, in my experience, tragic consequences.

HS

[antongould]

Has anyone any idea what proportion of the membership of the orchestra attend(ed) private schools?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Has anyone any idea what proportion of the membership of the orchestra attend(ed) private schools?

That would be interesting to know, but I think there's a reasonable mix. However, with the draining of music service funding, "play if you can pay" is the likely outcome.

[Hornspieler]

This comment really struck a chord with myself. I have got to say that I avoid concerts by any high profile youth orchestra like the plague - not because I am jealous and envious of the young and talented (although of course I am!) but because of comments by presenters and journalists such as "they played much better than the professionals!", "they gave much more than do professionals!", "they gave the professionals a run for their money!" etc.,etc.

Well, perhaps these comments are true but, could they 'give' as much if they were rehearsing and playing 5, 6 some times 7 days per week, every week, out at night in all weathers miles from home, with poor to indifferent conductors and managements who do not have enough money to run the orchestras properly and see the players as the best department on which to save money?

Please do not see this as an attack on these young players; it is certainly not meant to be. And please do not take this to mean that orchestras are full of bitter and disenchanted people. For those who can survive the profession's downsides, they have a career which, when retired, they can look back on with pleasure and in which they will meet many fine and interesting characters.

Here is an example of a duty sheet for the Bournemouth Symphony orchestra in the Autumn of 1961:

BOURNEMOUTH SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA

Schedule for Northern Tour Commencing 6th November
hours calls

SUN Depart 8.30 for Theatre Royal, Exeter
6th Rehearsal 1 hour on arrival
Concert 2.45pm Programme as for 3rd November
Depart 5.00pm for Drake Theatre, Plymouth
Concert 7.30pm Programme as above
Stay night in Plymouth 5 3

MON Depart Plymouth 8.30 for Theatre Royal, Exeter
7th Schools Concert 10.30-11.30am
Depart Exeter 12.30pm for Central Hall, Newport*
Rehearsal 5.00-5.30pm
Concert 7.30pm Programme as above
Stay night in Newport 3½ 3

TUE Depart Newport 9.00 for City Hall, Cardiff
8th Schools Concert 10.30-11.30am
Rehearsal 4.00-6.00pm Programme for 10th November
Concert 8.00pm Programme as for Newport
Stay night in Cardiff 5 3

WED Depart Cardiff 10.00 for Branwyn Hall, Swansea
9th Rehearsal 2.30-4.30pm Programme for 10th November
Concert 7.30pm Programme as for Newport
Stay night in Swansea 4 2

THU Depart Swansea 9.00 for Town Hall, Birmingham
10th Rehearsal 3.00-6.00pm
Concert 8.00pm
Stay night in Birmingham 5 2

FRI Depart Birmingham 10.00 for Free Trade Hall, Manchester
11th Seating Rehearsal 5.00-5.30pm
Concert 8.00pm Programme as for Newport
Stay night in Manchester 2½ 2
----
SAT Depart Manchester 10.00 for City Hall, Leeds
12th Rehearsal 4.30-5.00pm
Concert 8.00pm Programme as for Birmingham
Stay night in Leeds 2½ 2

SUN Depart Leeds 10.00 for City Hall, Bradford
13th Rehearsal 1 hour on arrival
Concert 3.00pm Programme as for Newport
Depart Bradford 6.00pm to Bournemouth 2½ 2
(estimated arrival time 1.00am)

* via Gloucester. The Severn Bridge was not built at this time.
The total of Playing hours credited is 30 (The maximum permitted per week under the player's contract).

It takes no account of the amount of hours travelling to fulfill this schedule.

Whilst admittedly this is an extreme example it does confirm Once Was 4's assertion that a youth orchestra should never be compared with a professional symphony orchestra for whom a visit to the Proms is just one day in a busy and varied week.

HS.

[Tony Halstead]

Here is an example of a duty sheet for the Bournemouth Symphony orchestra in the Autumn of 1961:

BOURNEMOUTH SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA

Schedule for Northern Tour Commencing 6th November
hours calls

SUN Depart 8.30 for Theatre Royal, Exeter
6th Rehearsal 1 hour on arrival
Concert 2.45pm Programme as for 3rd November
Depart 5.00pm for Drake Theatre, Plymouth
Concert 7.30pm Programme as above
Stay night in Plymouth 5 3

MON Depart Plymouth 8.30 for Theatre Royal, Exeter
7th Schools Concert 10.30-11.30am
Depart Exeter 12.30pm for Central Hall, Newport*
Rehearsal 5.00-5.30pm
Concert 7.30pm Programme as above
Stay night in Newport 3½ 3

TUE Depart Newport 9.00 for City Hall, Cardiff
8th Schools Concert 10.30-11.30am
Rehearsal 4.00-6.00pm Programme for 10th November
Concert 8.00pm Programme as for Newport
Stay night in Cardiff 5 3

WED Depart Cardiff 10.00 for Branwyn Hall, Swansea
9th Rehearsal 2.30-4.30pm Programme for 10th November
Concert 7.30pm Programme as for Newport
Stay night in Swansea 4 2

THU Depart Swansea 9.00 for Town Hall, Birmingham
10th Rehearsal 3.00-6.00pm
Concert 8.00pm
Stay night in Birmingham 5 2

FRI Depart Birmingham 10.00 for Free Trade Hall, Manchester
11th Seating Rehearsal 5.00-5.30pm
Concert 8.00pm Programme as for Newport
Stay night in Manchester 2½ 2
----
SAT Depart Manchester 10.00 for City Hall, Leeds
12th Rehearsal 4.30-5.00pm
Concert 8.00pm Programme as for Birmingham
Stay night in Leeds 2½ 2

SUN Depart Leeds 10.00 for City Hall, Bradford
13th Rehearsal 1 hour on arrival
Concert 3.00pm Programme as for Newport
Depart Bradford 6.00pm to Bournemouth 2½ 2
(estimated arrival time 1.00am)

* via Gloucester. The Severn Bridge was not built at this time.
The total of Playing hours credited is 30 (The maximum permitted per week under the player's contract).

It takes no account of the amount of hours travelling to fulfill this schedule.

Whilst admittedly this is an extreme example it does confirm Once Was 4's assertion that a youth orchestra should never be compared with a professional symphony orchestra for whom a visit to the Proms is just one day in a busy and varied week.

HS.

Well, well, HS, this is quite 'spooky' as I am quite quite sure that as a member ( briefly, as 4th horn) of the BSO from 1st September 1966 to 30th November 1966, I took part in exactly such a gruelling tour as you have described.

I do agree with all your comments re the NYO, by the way.

[Sir Velo]

I do wonder though if the emotion in the piece wasn't simply too much for some to handle, one or two seemed to be in tears at the end.

Watching this last night, I think the emotion arose more out of the sense of end of termism and the overwhelming reaction in the hall which was probably more than most of the orchestra had expected or previously experienced. Sir Mark was probably the one most overcome by the music's content.

[Mary Chambers]

Watching this last night, I think the emotion arose more out of the sense of end of termism and the overwhelming reaction in the hall which was probably more than most of the orchestra had expected or previously experienced. Sir Mark was probably the one most overcome by the music's content.

Exhaustion and elation, I thought. From what I remember of being a teenager, it's also quite probable that they were overwhelmed by the actual music. Very impressive all round.

I believe the social/regional mix is not too bad, but I tend to think that they should just take the best, whatever their background. Same goes for universities. Unfashionable, I know.

[Sir Velo]

Exhaustion and elation, I thought. From what I remember of being a teenager, it's also quite probable that they were overwhelmed by the actual music. Very impressive all round.

Mary, I should probably have said that I reached my conclusion on the basis that it wasn't until several minutes after the music had finished that the tears started to flow. It seemed to coincide with the call to individual members to take a bow that precipitated it (or should I say with Elder "reaching out" to the players?) which led me to think that it wasn't the music itself that provoked the reaction.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Exhaustion and elation, I thought. From what I remember of being a teenager, it's also quite probable that they were overwhelmed by the actual music. Very impressive all round.

Agreed on all counts - I don't know what SirV saw as he watched that led him to think otherwise. (Edit: Ah! I do now that I've seen his next post.)

I believe the social/regional mix is not too bad, but I tend to think that they should just take the best, whatever their background.

I don't think that there is any evidence from the Mahler/Davies performances that they've done anything else - are there any "better" players from that age group applying?