Prom 17: Hallé – Debussy/VW/Elgar (30.07.15)

[Suffolkcoastal]

The perfect two works to programme with Sancta Civitas, would have been the Holst: Hymn of Jesus and Walton: Belshazzar's Feast. those three works all involving spacial choral effects in different ways played in the same programme would be a fantastic experience. Plus keeping the large choral forces fully occupied throughout!

[Ferretfancy]

The perfect two works to programme with Sancta Civitas, would have been the Holst: Hymn of Jesus and Walton: Belshazzar's Feast. those three works all involving spacial choral effects in different ways played in the same programme would be a fantastic experience. Plus keeping the large choral forces fully occupied throughout!

The large choral forces would certainly have beeb fully occupied, but perhaps a little exhausted by the end of the evening?

It's interesting to hear the difference between Vaughan Williams and Walton in the setting of the words --'Babylon the Great is fallen' Vaughan williams has an almost incantatory phrase with great sadness, while Walton is triumphant.

[Sir Velo]

The perfect two works to programme with Sancta Civitas, would have been the Holst: Hymn of Jesus and Walton: Belshazzar's Feast. those three works all involving spacial choral effects in different ways played in the same programme would be a fantastic experience. Plus keeping the large choral forces fully occupied throughout!

Maybe with three different choirs.

I think you're asking a bit too much both of the choirs and the audience! Maybe one for home listening, where demands on performers are significantly reduced.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Certainly not too demanding duration wise, the 3 works only total a little over 90 minutes. Baritone soloist sharing two works. Speaking as an experienced choir member hard work, but not over demanding stamina wise, I find works like The Apostles more demanding with the ups & downs, and keeping concentration during longer soloist passages. Interval before the Walton, to recharge voice.

[BassOne83]

Set out at 5 am to sing in this. Got back home 23 hours later!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Set out a 5 am to sing in this. Got back home 23 hours later!

Hello BassOne83. Good to hear from you again, and I remember your comments on the Bridgewater Hall Apostles performance.

[VodkaDilc]

Set out a 5 am to sing in this. Got back home 23 hours later!

It was a great evening. Apart from the quality of the performances, I thought it was a lovely touch to see most of the choir members still in their seats in the second half, to support the orchestra. (A few gaps in the Youth Choir seats, but we all have our own priorites at that age.)

[VodkaDilc]

I wonder if anyone who has an insight into the current eccentric BBC thinking about televising Proms can tell me the situation as regards this Prom. The programme says quite clearly that the Elgar will be shown on Sunday and this is confirmed by the length of the broadcast. But, unless I was imagining it, the cameras were in operation for the VW and Debussy too. Any guesses? Will we be able to see the other works?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What has happened with other non-televised bits of the otherwise televised Proms (!) is that they have been made available for viewing on the i-Player. Presumably, this will be the case here.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I felt in good hands from the moment Sir Mark Elder launched Elgar’s 2nd Eb Symphony with his Halle Orchestra. There was a sense of propulsion, of shape and of long-term structure but no neglect of the fine detail that Elgar uses to maintain interest and variety in his masterly score. The funeral march possessed nobility as well as pathos and the descent into momentary nightmare in the scherzo was wonderfully well handled. The autumnal glow of the finale was beautifully done and its scoring, so close to Mahler’s and the music's overt referencesto R.Strauss, Wagner, & Brahms were effortlessly integrated into a coherent whole. I think that I’ve heard all of Elgar’s major scores live in the Concert Hall but have managed always to miss this symphony. Next time I see it scheduled by Sir Mark and the Halle, I shall make amends.

Oh.

I thought it sprawled rather - I prefer the quicker (not simply "faster") tempi suggested in the score and produced in the recordings by Elgar himself, Boult's 1945, Solti, Slatkin and others - and how Jurowski presented it last year. Elder's careful, restrained and considered performance revealed many details of the scoring and was beautifully played by the orchestra. But I felt his approach lacked the impetus, symphonic drama, and sheer overwhelming passion that I hear when I read the score.

[edashtav]

Oh.

I thought it sprawled rather -[...] But I felt his approach lacked the impetus, symphonic drama, and sheer overwhelming passion that I hear when I read the score.

I think I understand what you mean, fhg and I do concur that other, often non-British, conductors, succeed when they inject pace and passion into Elgar. I do see this work as a retrospective piece, a summation of an era (Edwardian) in much the way that Arnold Bax says goodbye to the world of both his youth and his symphonic impetus in his 7th Symphony. I admitted in my comments that I'm yet to hear the 2nd Elgar symphony live (I was brought up on a Boult LP by my father who loved Elgar above all composers and kept a well-thumbed biography of the composer by his bedside for his last 30 years). I may well be moved to hear it differently when faced with the piece in the flesh. I did think that Mark Elder's interpretation was solid and well-rounded. I found it satisfying, like a warm blanket. One facet that caught my attention was the finale where Elder brought out parallels between the music and Mahler. As far as I know, Elgar knew no scores by Mahler. I realise that Mahler conducted Elgar's Enigma Variations in the States although that was probably more due to accepting an established schedule than the active promotion that Richard Strauss had earlier given to Elgar.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I would concur with "satisfying, like a warm blanket" - but last year, I was weeping buckets during and at the end of the performance; Jurowski didn't just get to the sense of loss that's behind so much (but not all) of this work - he also revealed a sense of gratitude there, too: gratitude for experiencing what has been lost. As well as the noble swagger, the devil-may-care playfulness which sours into barely suppressed fury in the Scherzo and so much else that last night's performance felt was unnecessary - unwelcome, even.

And it's not just a case of "injecting pace and passion into" this score - it's there in the score for conductors to read and bring out of it. Allegro vivace e nobilmente, (MM = 92, increasing to 104 a mere five bars later), con anima, poco piu sostenuto, in tempo (MM down to 84, accelerating after two bars back to 100), sempre animato, tempo primo (MM = 100), poco animato, poco sostenuto (for two bars and then back to MM = 92), poco animato, animato, Impetuoso, Tempo primo, brilliante, stringendo, vivace, etc etc ... the slowest MM in the first movement is 76, for the Second Group - Elder gave us something closer to 60. It's all there in the score, it doesn't need botox!

[teamsaint]

I think I understand what you mean, fhg and I do concur that other, often non-British, conductors, succeed when they inject pace and passion into Elgar. I do see this work as a retrospective piece, a summation of an era (Edwardian) in much the way that Arnold Bax says goodbye to the world of both his youth and his symphonic impetus in his 7th Symphony. I admitted in my comments that I'm yet to hear the 2nd Elgar symphony live (I was brought up on a Boult LP by my father who loved Elgar above all composers and kept a well-thumbed biography of the composer by his bedside for his last 30 years). I may well be moved to hear it differently when faced with the piece in the flesh. I did think that Mark Elder's interpretation was solid and well-rounded. I found it satisfying, like a warm blanket. One facet that caught my attention was the finale where Elder brought out parallels between the music and Mahler. As far as I know, Elgar knew no scores by Mahler. I realise that Mahler conducted Elgar's Enigma Variations in the States although that was probably more due to accepting an established schedule than the active promotion that Richard Strauss had earlier given to Elgar.

Some opportunities to put the Elgar 2 thing right this autumn, Ed.

http://www.bsolive.com/events/?FriendlyID=&view=page&pageno=4

[edashtav]

Some opportunities to put the Elgar 2 thing right this autumn, Ed.

http://www.bsolive.com/events/?Frien...=page&pageno=4

Thanks for that - teamsaint - I'd not seen the BSO prospectus for the coming winter season. My mother is very old & wea k so it's useful to have BSO gig in Poole to pop to Bournemouth without seeming to be checking on Mum's progress.

[BassOne83]

I wonder if anyone who has an insight into the current eccentric BBC thinking about televising Proms can tell me the situation as regards this Prom. The programme says quite clearly that the Elgar will be shown on Sunday and this is confirmed by the length of the broadcast. But, unless I was imagining it, the cameras were in operation for the VW and Debussy too. Any guesses? Will we be able to see the other works?

iPlayer (at least for the RVW)