Prom 16: Ibiza/Cobblers Prom (29.07.15)

[french frank]

I thought what was under discussion was the unacceptable (to some) broadening of the range of music?

If you try to fill a bottle of wine which is already full with some other liquid, you get less wine.

[Serial_Apologist]

If you try to fill a bottle of wine which is already full with some other liquid, you get less wine.

On the other hand, there's a lot of muddying of waters going on in this discussion.

A Cup of Tea
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. 'It is overfull. No more will go in!'

'Like this cup', Nan-in said, 'your are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?'

(Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, compiled Paul Reps, Pelican, 1971, Middlesex, P17)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I thought what was under discussion was the unacceptable (to some) broadening of the range of music?

I'm suggesting that the overall range of music on the BBC (and elsewhere) is being diminished, not broadened.

[David Underdown]

If you try to fill a bottle of wine which is already full with some other liquid, you get less wine.

Compared to what, depends if you've made teh bottle bigger too. There are far more Proms during a season than there used to be, eg no regular Sunday proms until surprisingly recently (I've given precise details somewhere on the forums before, it's all there in the archives on the BBC website, or now the RAH one too), Last Night is now usually Prom 76, when back in mid-90s it was Prom 72 or 73. Back then the chamber proms were only just getting going, adn we now have the Saturday matinees too.

[french frank]

I'm suggesting that the overall range of music on the BBC (and elsewhere) is being diminished, not broadened.

There are certainly signs, on the BBC in general, of popular music increasing at the expense of, erm, 'art music' . The number of 'classical Proms' on television this season being a case in point; and as I have mentioned, BBC Music Day appeared to exclude it entirely - except on Radio 3 where it would be anyway (and the evening concert was replaced by Radio 2's programme). This is where the concept of 'reciprocity' kicks in. Or rather, fails to. (Sorry to be pedantic, Gongers!).

I'm not sure that I agree that the range of music is being diminished, unless you consider that there are only two kinds: classical and popular. Popular has grown in range, and fragmented its audiences. But the outlets for hearing it have also increased (far more than doubled - which is roughly what has happened to the Proms).

I think it's mainly a publicity stunt to boost another of the BBC brands (cf Doctor Who, Sherlock, Life on Earth; so the Radio 1 Ibiza Weekend). That's all that the BBC needs: its arguments don't have to make sense.

[Beef Oven!]

A query - if anyone knows the answer. It's impossible to check now because there are 'No seats available', but when I looked last week, there were still seats in the stalls, but everywhere else was marked 'unavailable', even the circle. Assuming there will be promming at least in the arena (supposing it isn't used for dancing!), does it mean that they were only using the stalls seating for this Prom, or were the rest sold out?

Well, I'm not going unless it's an arena option. Anyway, how ya supposed to dance in a chair?

[Frances_iom]

...Anyway, how ya supposed to dance in a chair?

I thought John Adams had arranged a special piece for that?

[french frank]

Well, I'm not going unless it's an arena option. Anyway, how ya supposed to dance in a chair?

Most of the time it would be difficult to dance in the arena anyway … they'll have to limit the number of tickets or it'll be bedlam - BEDLAM, I tells ye!

[teamsaint]

Much of the "popular" music featured at the Proms seems thoroughly from the past.
Stranglers, pet Shop Boys,Pete Tong's 20 th anniversary, as well as the " Sinatra " gig.

The World Routes Prom seemed ( and I am no expert on this) to represent current vibrant music, and current and vibrant is what popular tends to do best, IMHO.
That isn't to say that there is no lasting value in popular idioms,or that "popular" music from 10 , 20 or 30 years ago isn't worth hearing performed live of course,simply to question whether what is being showcased is really the best available, or is really just a showcase for BBc brands.

"Popular " really is a terrible description.

[Beef Oven!]

I thought John Adams had arranged a special piece for that?

I wondered who'd make that connection when I posted.

[Richard Tarleton]

Just looked at the small print in the Radio Times, p.128 - "Tonight's first Radio 1 Prom will certainly cause controversy..." [the BBC will make sure of that ]..."The concert has already been eloquently defended in Radio Times by Suzy Klein..." [not sure who'd attacked it at that point]

I'll certainly hit the red button after the News to see what's going on. The weather being what it is, I expect people will be more warmly dressed than they are on the sidebar that you see if you google Ibiza dance music 2015, which I did in a broad-minded spirit of research . But it goes on way after my bedtime, so I won't stay long.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Just looked at the small print in the Radio Times, p.128 - "Tonight's first Radio 1 Prom will certainly cause controversy..." [the BBC will make sure of that ]..."The concert has already been eloquently defended in Radio Times by Suzy Klein..." [not sure who'd attacked it at that point]

It's rather pathetic that they have to go such lengths to be noticed.

[french frank]

It's rather pathetic that they have to go such lengths to be noticed.

'Eloquently defended'

It's one thing to want modern popular music, especially so-called 'youth music', to be included at the Proms. For whatever reason e.g. you love dancing to an addictive club anthem.

It's quite another to try to fool people that the early Proms 'set out to be as inclusive and broad as possible'. They didn't. They aimed to 'create an audience for classical and modern music' - but you only have to look at those early Proms to see that by 'modern' music, the founders meant recently composed 'classical' music. Debussy's Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune was first performed in 1904 - 10 years after it was composed; and by 1910, the programmes included works by still-living composers like Goldmark, Moszkowski and York Bowen. Not the Second Viennese School yet, but still 'modern'.

And in any case, you don't 'create' an audience for popular music: it's popular because it already has a large audience. Like the crowds that go off to Radio 1's Ibiza Weekend.

The 'popular' concerts are crowd-pleasers which will attract plenty of publicity for the 'staid, old Proms'; but do nothing to attract new devotees to classical/contemporary classical music because the two audiences are kept apart like rival supporters at a football match.

And to misinform a 'broad audience' who can be guaranteed to know no better is either dishonest or ignorant, depending on whether one knows the truth or not.

But the BBC is free do to what it likes and we don't have to like it . Just don't argue you're being true to the spirit of the early Proms.

[Flosshilde]

If you try to fill a bottle of wine which is already full with some other liquid, you get less wine.

What a ridiculous analogy. What concert has been camcelled so that this one can take place? The Proms aren't 'full' - there are plenty of currently unused hours that can be used for concerts. This one is in the late evening so it isn't replacing the early evening concerts which will still be available to the 'I'll listen to anything played by X, or conducted by Y, or written by Z' crowd. I think any arguments against including this type of concert in the Proms (and there are some) aren't helped by hysterical over-statement.

[french frank]

What a ridiculous analogy. What concert has been camcelled so that this one can take place? The Proms aren't 'full'

You've wrenched that out of context, haven't you And excluded other relevant comments on the point that was being answered. Heigh-ho.