Prom 16: Ibiza/Cobblers Prom (29.07.15)

[french frank]

One argument against having any of these 'pop-type' concerts is that when the Proms first started there weren't as many music festivals devoted entirely to 'young' popular music as there are now (not even in 1970 when Soft Machine had an appearance). Why do the Proms need to host them as well? The 'why' is not rhetorical: I want to know the reason

The Radio 1 Ibiza dance-party seems to be the BBC just inserting yet another 'BBC brand' - like Doctor Who (and all the BBC presenters from Pete Tong and Jarvis Cocker to Gabby Logan and Mary Anne Hobbs) - into the Proms, thus neatly giving a boost to each of their 'brands' too.

I don't think this has much to do with the music …

[MrGongGong]

One argument against having any of these 'pop-type' concerts is that when the Proms first started there weren't as many music festivals devoted entirely to 'young' popular music as there are now (not even in 1970 when Soft Machine had an appearance). Why do the Proms need to host them as well? The 'why' is not rhetorical: I want to know the reason

There are also many more music festivals devoted to "classical" music (or even "Classical" music)
all of which is a good thing IMV

[Nick Armstrong]

Well it's happened... I was aboard the bike shortly after 5, and rather than face the supercilious Ms Klein talking cobblers about wolves to some bloke who'd never heard of Hélène Grimaud, I switched to Classic FM and was rewarded with some Haydn (Symph. 102, Colin Davis/Concertgebouw), Svendsen and Holst, minimal crap in between, spot of travel news at 5.30. Preferable...

[ahinton]

One argument against having any of these 'pop-type' concerts is that when the Proms first started there weren't as many music festivals devoted entirely to 'young' popular music as there are now (not even in 1970 when Soft Machine had an appearance). Why do the Proms need to host them as well? The 'why' is not rhetorical: I want to know the reason

The Radio 1 Ibiza dance-party seems to be the BBC just inserting yet another 'BBC brand' - like Doctor Who (and all the BBC presenters from Pete Tong and Jarvis Cocker to Gabby Logan and Mary Anne Hobbs) - into the Proms, thus neatly giving a boost to each of their 'brands' too.

I don't think this has much to do with the music …

Agreed wholeheartedly on all counts, FF.

If various kinds of pop, rock et al music were attracting (as they are) large numbers of people but it was being gravely under-represented, then something like this, bizarre as some of us find it to be, might at least be somewhat more understandable but, in reality, those kinds of musics are already ubiquitous (especially in today's internet age) whereas the kinds of music traditionally associated with the Proms is by no means so.

OK, one could reasonably argue that this is to some extent fair and equitable because concerts by symphony orchestras and chamber ensembles attract far smaller audiences than do pop, rock et al performances (though by no means as small as some might think), but that's no more reason to invade the Proms with the latter and/or patronise its audiences by giving them more commercially orientated material that BBC appears to have decided for itself that they want in the hope of raising audience attendance figures through an overtly populistic approach than not doing either of those things is guaranteed to engender a climate of élitism, divisiveness or any of the other kinds of negative outcome bandied about from time to time by certain enthusiastic accusers, Ms Klein evidently among them.

What appears to be flawed here is the agenda of those accusers and others in seeking implicitly to persuade listeners that something is gravely amiss if each and every kind of music is not represented to some extent in a festival such as the Proms. It's already bad enough that what's still the majority of Prom concerts given by symphony orchestras take place in a building whose acoustical shortcomings for almost any musical performance are hopelessly inadequate (not to mention that the prospect of Yo Yo Ma playing Bach solo cello suites and the wonderful Alina Ibgragimova playing unaccompanied Bach volin works in said acoustic verges on the barbarically absurd) without the additional machinations of the banner-waving brand-mongers seeking yet further deterioration of this festival.

Were BBC to mount a specifically English music festival (which I hasten to add the Proms has never been), would there not be understandable howls of protest and the slinging of brickbats if works by Magnard, Roussel and Dutilleux, great as they are, were included in its programmes? Yes (said he, answering his own question); so what's the difference?

As I wrote earlier, when R1 broadcasts a Ferneyhough Total Immersion Day, R2 features Xenakis as composer of the week and R4 mounts daily programmes interviewing composers and performers of new "classical" music - or a Pettersson symphony cycle be included in a rock festival somewhere - this entire nonsense might become timely for review but, until and unless that all happens, it might be helpful were Suzy the Banshee and those of like mind to be persuaded to take their noisily promoted ideas and programming desires elsewhere.

Sorry for sailing close to the wind that blows in the direction of rules about not dissenting presenters - and I daresay Suzy Klein might well be a very nice person, so I'm not having a dig at that - but this sort of thing just won't do and might ultimately risk not merely the dumbing down but also the very demise of R3 if allowed to become the norm and continue unchecked.

[ahinton]

Well it's happened... I was aboard the bike shortly after 5, and rather than face the supercilious Ms Klein talking cobblers about wolves to some bloke who'd never heard of Hélène Grimaud, I switched to Classic FM and was rewarded with some Haydn (Symph. 102, Colin Davis/Concertgebouw), Svendsen and Holst, minimal crap in between, spot of travel news at 5.30. Preferable...

Understandable, to be sure - but what an indictment!

[teamsaint]

Well it's happened... I was aboard the bike shortly after 5, and rather than face the supercilious Ms Klein talking cobblers about wolves to some bloke who'd never heard of Hélène Grimaud, I switched to Classic FM and was rewarded with some Haydn (Symph. 102, Colin Davis/Concertgebouw), Svendsen and Holst, minimal crap in between, spot of travel news at 5.30. Preferable...

do they have sports bulletins?

through all this nonsense, I still haven't figured out who it is that Klein is commenting about.
She seems to have invented an enemy.

Maybe she has been set up by Ron Shafferty's PR people to make him look like the Good Cop......

[french frank]

through all this nonsense, I still haven't figured out who it is that Klein is commenting about.
She seems to have invented an enemy.

Well, I googled Proms Ibiza 2015, and then News. At the top were three hits about her article in the Radio Times.

Then there were all the original reports back in April, of which I only spotted one - in the Daily Mail - that seemed to be raising an eyebrow. It seems that Bill Cash MP commented, the nub being:

"The Proms already have a good, convivial finish, and that is part of the tradition, but to undermine the framework and ethos of the Proms is unacceptable."

He may be a snob, but I don't think he was 'self-elected' …

[MrGongGong]

"The Proms already have a good, convivial finish, and that is part of the tradition, but to undermine the framework and ethos of the Proms is unacceptable."

"good, convivial" = "jingoistic b*ll*cks"?

Tradition ?
(I know..... but it is topical innit)

[Flosshilde]

Hélène Grimaud,

Who?

Was the 'bloke' meant to be talking about her? If not, why was his lack of knowledge a) relevant & b) reprehensible?

[Nick Armstrong]

Who?

Was the 'bloke' meant to be talking about her? If not, why was his lack of knowledge a) relevant & b) reprehensible?

Try Google and iPlayer.

[french frank]

"good, convivial" = "jingoistic b*ll*cks"?

The point of my post being a reply to team's - that it was the only comment I could find that was saying anything about it - so who was SK talking about?

Proms are about to begin. I think there had been too little public outcry - in fact there seemed a danger that there would be no further outcry at all. Hence all the hot air about these snobs. Must smoke 'em out somehow

[MrGongGong]

I'm very disappointed that there hadn't been a kerfuffle about clapping between movements
it's more "traditional" than the Sea Songs

so who was SK talking about?

Snow Whites other small friend?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Proms are about to begin. I think there had been too little public outcry - in fact there seemed a danger that there would be no further outcry at all. Hence all the hot air about these snobs. Must smoke 'em out somehow

Anti-snob people are often covering up for their own feeling of superiority.

[ahinton]

Anti-snob people are often covering up for their own feeling of superiority.

Snobbery (whoever's it might be), 1: Music, 10; Suzy Boozy Ibizy, - 4'33"...

[Flosshilde]

Try Google and iPlayer.

Or you could explain why it was so important.