Prom 16: Ibiza/Cobblers Prom (29.07.15)

[french frank]

It is (mildly) interesting that folks default to ballet for dance in the same way that they might default to orchestral music for music.

That wasn't me - it was someone using the argument for the Ibiza Prom. I was responding to it.

[Sir Velo]

I don't think that any of those are intended to be danced to (you might as well add Bach's solo cello suites) when played in a concert hall. Nor are they danced to (to my knowledge!) at all.
The message being ...? Let's dance?

I only mentioned ballet in the first place because that was the example given earlier - an example I didn't think applied. By all means widen it to include all sorts of 'dance music' from from earlier times, in which case, remind me, how is this relating to the Ibiza Prom?

I've clearly misunderstood your argument then, as I assumed you were saying that unless the music was being played in a night club, the beat was inessential. My point was, however, that it was an integral part of the music, whether you're sitting down at home or bopping away in a sweaty San Antonio joint.

The analogy I made is that dance is an integral part of much, if not all music, so to argue against this prom on the grounds that the rhythmic element is pointless, undermines much if not all of western art music.

[french frank]

The analogy I made is that dance is an integral part of much, if not all music, so to argue against this prom on the grounds that the rhythmic element is pointless, undermines much if not all of western art music.

I think if one makes no distinction between a regular beat of dance music in general and the importance of the heavy 'groove' of most modern popular music you might have a point.

But this is the disadvantage of trying to counter other people's arguments. The fact that it's 'dance music' isn't a reason for or against it being included in the Proms. The Pet Shop Boys weren't dance music. Nor was Paloma Faith (I don't think). Nor was Rufus Wainwright. So the argument isn't about contemporary 'dance music'. Is it? The salient point here seems to be the fundamental difference in the audiences for the Proms and club night dance music, which destroys the somewhat pathetic arguments about 'introducing a new audience to classical music'. Rubbish. (In which case we hastily withdraw that argument but haven't yet come up with a better one.)

If you begin the movement to include popular music regularly in the Proms, it seems legitimate to ask whether there should be any limit, at any point, to the proportion of classical to popular? 95:5? 90:10? 75:25? 50:50?

Because you either make no distinction between 'musics', in which case it doesn't matter; or you do make a distinction in which case you think that the art music of past generations should be safeguarded and there should be limits to the gradual diminution of outlets for its performance.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It is (mildly) interesting that folks default to ballet for dance in the same way that they might default to orchestral music for music.

Why are there supposed to be two sides anyway?

Because one gives you tinnitus and the other doesn't (unless you're an orchestral player who sits in front of the trombones).

[MrGongGong]

Because one gives you tinnitus and the other doesn't (unless you're an orchestral player who sits in front of the trombones).

Sadly you are incorrect i'm afraid.
Hearing damage amongst orchestral musicians isn't confined to those who sit in front of the brass and is extremely common.

[doversoul1]

The analogy I made is that dance is an integral part of much, if not all music, so to argue against this prom on the grounds that the rhythmic element is pointless, undermines much if not all of western art music.

Dance is but the music played for the audience to dance is not necessarily an integral part of music. Arguing against this prom does no such thing as undermining western art music.

[MrGongGong]

Dance is but the music played for the audience to dance is not necessarily an integral part of music.

What?
I try inserting commas but it still doesn't make sense?

[Sir Velo]

Dance is but the music played for the audience to dance is not necessarily an integral part of music. Arguing against this prom does no such thing as undermining western art music.

It does when you make the basis of your argument one of dismissal of this prom on the grounds that it has a strongly repetitive rhythmic element, since dance forms underpin almost all of "classical music" itself.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sadly you are incorrect i'm afraid.
Hearing damage amongst orchestral musicians isn't confined to those who sit in front of the brass and is extremely common.

Slightly off-topic, and I don't know whether it applies to all players, but a student in the NYO GB told me they were given suitable earplugs at the beginning of courses, but most choose not to use them. More fool them. I greatly valued their effect in a recent performance of Sibelius 5 (or to be more accurate in the rehearsals which took place in a smaller venue); I was sitting directly in front on the trombones.

[MrGongGong]

Slightly off-topic, and I don't know whether it applies to all players, but a student in the NYO GB told me they were given suitable earplugs at the beginning of courses, but most choose not to use them. More fool them. I greatly valued their effect in a recent performance of Sibelius 5 (or to be more accurate in the rehearsals which took place in a smaller venue); I was sitting directly in front on the trombones.

I think we have discussed hearing protection before, but there are some great earplugs about these days which attenuate the sound without the disorientation that comes with the foam (or silicone) type plugs.

Though at gigs like the R1 Prom most of the players will be using in-ear monitoring so the SPL level they experience will be much less that sitting in front of a trumpet without a screen or plugs.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It does when you make the basis of your argument one of dismissal of this prom on the grounds that it has a strongly repetitive rhythmic element, since dance forms underpin almost all of "classical music" itself.

I think doversoul was being too polite when referring to the repetitive rhythmic content. Some may be able to withstand being tortured before agreeing to talk. Minuets, polonaises, polkas and waltzes don't normally make one feel aggressive.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Though at gigs like the R1 Prom most of the players will be using in-ear monitoring so the SPL level they experience will be much less that sitting in front of a trumpet without a screen or plugs.

I was more concerned for the audience.

[MrGongGong]

Some may be able to withstand being tortured before agreeing to talk. Minuets, polonaises, polkas and waltzes don't normally make one feel aggressive.

Not as much as Elgar does

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Not as much as Elgar does

Just put it on repeat.

[Serial_Apologist]

If you begin the movement to include popular music regularly in the Proms, it seems legitimate to ask whether there should be any limit, at any point, to the proportion of classical to popular? 95:5? 90:10? 75:25? 50:50?

Because you either make no distinction between 'musics', in which case it doesn't matter; or you do make a distinction in which case you think that the art music of past generations should be safeguarded and there should be limits to the gradual diminution of outlets for its performance.

Good question!

I approach it from the rather different perspective from categorical imperatives by asking, who is actually making the decisions, and, more importantly, who benefits from such a shift?

I have my own ideas which, unfortunately, the ban on discussing the political dimension precludes further enunciating. But therein, I believe, are both the answers to many of society's problems today to do with scarcity, surplus product and why these are allowed or made to be perpetuated, and groundings for cross-political campaingining alliances to be forged, based on maintaining standards and inclusivity - the very things for which capitalism's apologists claim so strong a case.