Prom 16: Ibiza/Cobblers Prom (29.07.15)

[David-G]

Now that the myths have gone, we're left with the Music - which is amongst the finest achievements of the human imagination in its entire history. This is what is (demonstrably) true.

I could not have put it better.

[Norrette]

And there wasn't much dancing - just jumping up and down to the thuds.

Just watched a quick scan of it on iPlayer, and that's true there wasn't enough space for dancing - and the rhythms were not tight enough even if some wanted to 'do their thing'. So it was more like Top of the Pops en masse.

I wondered how the orchestra managed to see their instruments, much less the conductor. Didn't hear any Spanish music either

[MrGongGong]

Not much room for dancing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_GaNPtGwg

[Norrette]

Not much room for dancing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_GaNPtGwg

Yes, precisely. They couldn't dance properly in that space either.

[MrGongGong]

Yes, precisely. They couldn't dance properly in that space either.

Surely the point is to dance "improperly"?

[Beef Oven!]

Some of us are doing our best to put forward reasoned arguments. Others don't seem to feel the need.

I'm not convinced about that. All I hear is that some people just don't want this type of thing going on in a Prom. Much of the argument is irrational, e.g. the myopic statements about dance.

And classical music written for the ballet has several differences: the first being that it was never for audience (young or old) participation...........

If there's an audience and it is listening, it's participating.

[MrGongGong]

If there's an audience and it is listening, it's participating.

It's part of Musicking

Statements along the lines of ........."I hate loudspeakers and all the sounds that come from them"

Is hardly a "reasoned argument"

[french frank]

I'm not convinced about that. All I hear is that some people just don't want this type of thing going on in a Prom. Much of the argument is irrational, e.g. the myopic statements about dance.

I said 'some' people. I've been a bit slow latching on to any opposing arguments - if there have been any.

If there's an audience and it is listening, it's participating.

That ignores the argument that has been made in its favour: that 'dance music' is repetitive and has a loud beat so that people can dance to it. These are not necessary if you are only listening. These are not characteristics of ballet.

It seems that the knee-jerks are not limited to one side only. I have a nasty suspicion that some people are laughing behind their hands at Radio 3's efforts to keep up with popular culture: 'just another good party - we're all for it'.

Statements along the lines of ........."I hate loudspeakers and all the sounds that come from them"

Is hardly a "reasoned argument"

I've never said either - who has?

[Sir Velo]

That ignores the argument that has been made in its favour: that 'dance music' is repetitive and has a loud beat so that people can dance to it. These are not necessary if you are only listening.

By the same token, you might as well say that unless you are actually participating in the sacrifice of a virgin that the percussion in Le Sacre should be cut from performance.

[french frank]

By the same token, you might as well say that unless you are actually participating in the sacrifice of a virgin that the percussion in Le Sacre should be cut from performance.

Don't think so: it's theatre as part of the drama in which the dancers are particip … I mean *dancing*. Ballet, like opera, is usually presenting a narrative which the music reflects.

If there was a ballet about a 21st c. dance party, that would be a reason to have that music. But 'a dance party' would be a pretty thin plot for a ballet.

[MrGongGong]

I've never said either - who has?

The key phrase is "along the lines of"

How about mr Swiss Muesli ?

That ignores the argument that has been made in its favour: that 'dance music' is repetitive and has a loud beat so that people can dance to it.

NO it doesn't
Because music can do more than one thing

What makes music "classical" is a question raised by this event.
I don't think it was a "classical music" gig at all but if thats the only label people have for orchestral music then you can't complain that folks use it.

[french frank]

The key phrase is "along the lines of"

How about mr Swiss Muesli ?

Your use of the phrase 'reasoned argument' appeared to refer to what I had said. I don't care which side the 'reasoned argument' comes from: let's hear it from both sides.

NO it doesn't
Because music can do more than one thing

? Oh, dear …

If you have a ballet, it doesn't have to be predominantly repetititious with loud beats. Which means that the argument about The Rite of Spring and Daphnis and Chloé doesn't apply: it is not like the music for a dance party which has the primary function of being easy to dance to for the party-goers.

What makes music "classical" is a question raised by this event.
I don't think it was a "classical music" gig at all but if thats the only label people have for orchestral music then you can't complain that folks use it.

Absolutely true. Ignorance in other people is just something we have to put up with.

[MrGongGong]

If you have a ballet, it doesn't have to be predominantly repetititious with loud beats.

Of course not
but this wasn't a ballet

There are many types of dance
and there are many types of dance music

It is (mildly) interesting that folks default to ballet for dance in the same way that they might default to orchestral music for music.

Why are there supposed to be two sides anyway?

[Sir Velo]

Don't think so: it's theatre as part of the drama in which the dancers are particip … I mean *dancing*. Ballet, like opera, is usually presenting a narrative which the music reflects.

If there was a ballet about a 21st c. dance party, that would be a reason to have that music. But 'a dance party' would be a pretty thin plot for a ballet.

No, sorry, that doesn't hold. What then about Bartok's "Dance Suite" or the finale of Beethoven's 7th (the so-called "Apotheosis of the Dance"), or any number of movements which are labelled "Minuets" or "Waltz" or "Polonaise" etc. None of these works are ballets, but all rely on dance elements to convey their message. Sure, the music at the Ibiza prom was repetitive but then so is Beni Mora or any amount of minimalism. Like it or loathe it, it had to be that way or it would have been laughed off the stage of the RAH.

[french frank]

No, sorry, that doesn't hold. What then about Bartok's "Dance Suite" or the finale of Beethoven's 7th (the so-called "Apotheosis of the Dance"), or any number of movements which are labelled "Minuets" or "Waltz" or "Polonaise" etc. None of these works are ballets, but all rely on dance elements to convey their message. Sure, the music at the Ibiza prom was repetitive but then so is Beni Mora or any amount of minimalism.

I don't think that any of those are intended to be danced to (you might as well add Bach's solo cello suites) when played in a concert hall. Nor are they danced to (to my knowledge!) at all.

but all rely on dance elements to convey their message.

The message being ...? Let's dance?

I only mentioned ballet in the first place because that was the example given earlier - an example I didn't think applied. By all means widen it to include all sorts of 'dance music' from from earlier times, in which case, remind me, how is this relating to the Ibiza Prom?